JoeWallack

JW:
The Objective of this Thread will be to analyze the Biblical Hebrew of Isaiah 7:14 in order to determine the best Likely translation. This Verse has traditionally been a Key verse in Polemics although in modern times, probably due in large part to Gesenius' confession that " הָעַלְמָה " means "young woman", Mainstream Christian Bible scholarship accepts that the Context is contemporary to Isaiah. Some elements of Christian Bible scholarship though still try to assert a "Double prophecy" in part based on the specific wording of 7:14.

All are welcome to comment except for Harvey Dubish. I would especially like to invite those who are fluent in Biblical Hebrew (BH), such as Spin and Apikorus, to participate.

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Isaiah_7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (ASV)"

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...OTpdf/isa7.pdf
[Selection of the Key words and the English translations are mine]

הִנה
H N H
Behold!

הָעַלְמָה
HML ( H
the young woman

הָרָה
HR H
has conceived

וְיֹלֶדֶת
TDLYW
and will give birth

בֵּן
NB
a son

וְקָרָאת
T) RKW
and you will call


Note that the above includes the Masoretic vowels which are not part of the written BH. Participants are welcome to use Masoretic pointing as evidence but should keep in mind that this pointing will not be authoritative to Apologists if it goes against Apologist Assertians.

The first word to look at is:

הִנה

From Brown-Driver-Briggs (emphasis mine):

הִנה S2008, 2009 TWOT510a, 510b GK2178, 2180 Once הִ�*ֶּה־ Gn 19:2, demonstr. part. lo! behold!; (Arabic إِنَّ (˒inna) certainly, surely, lit. lo!), with sf. (the pron. being conceived as accus., Ew§ 262 c; cf. إِنَّ (˒inna), which takes an accus., whether of a noun or pron. sf.) הִ�*ְ�*ִי Gn 6:13 + often (also הִֶ֣�*ּ�*ִּי Gn 22:7), הִ�*ֵּ֑�*ִי Gn 22:1, 11 +, (הִ�*ֶּ֔�*ִּי Gn 27:18), �*Is 65:1 הִֵ֣�*ּ�*ִי הִ�*ֵּ֔�*ִי (but הִ�*ֵּה אָ�*ֹכִי is also said Gn 24:13, 43; 25:32; 48:21 Ex 4:23; 7:17 +; and, more rarely, הִ�*ֵּה אֲ�*ִי Ez 37:5, 12, 19, 21 2 Ch 2:3, cf. 2 K 10:9 Je 32:27); הִ�*ְּךָ Gn 20:3 + (�*2 K 7:2 הִ�*ְּכָה), הִ�*ֶּ֑ךָּ �*ψ139:8, fem. הִ�*ָּךְ Gn 16:11 + 6 times; הִ�*ֹּו �*Nu 23:17 Jb 2:6 1 Ch 11:25, הִ�*ֵּ֫הוּ �*Je 18:3 Kt (הִ�*ֵּה הוּא is more usual, as Gn 20:16; 42:27; 1 S 10:22 Je 38:5 Ru 3:2): 1 pl. הִ�*ְ�*וּ �*Jos 9:25 2 S 5:1 Je 3:22 Ezr 9:15, הִ�*ֶּ֫�*ּוּ �*Gn 44:16; 50:18 Nu 14:40, הִ�*ֵּ֑�*וּ Jb 38:35; הִ�*ְּכֶם �*Dt 1:10 Je 16:12; הִ�*ָּם Gn 40:6 + often (37 times)—lo! behold! a. pointing to persons or things, Gn 12:19 and now הִ�*ֵּה אִשְׁתְּךָ behold thy wife! 18:9 הִ�*ֵּה בָאֹהֶל behold (she is) in the tent (the suffix, when the noun to which ה�*ה refers has immediately preceded, being not unfrequently omitted, 16:14: cf. Dr§ 135. 6, 2), 30:3; 31:51(×2) Ex 24:8 1 K 2:29. With sf. of 1 ps., especially in response to a call, indicating the readiness of the person addressed to listen or obey, Here I am! (lit. Behold me!) Gn 22:1, 7, 11; 27:1, 18; 31:11; 37:13; 46:2 Ex 3:4 1 S 3:4, 5, 6, 8, 16; 22:12 2 S 1:7 Is, 6:8, cf. 1 S 12:3 הִ�*ְ�*ִי עֲ�*וּ בִי here I am, answer against me, 14:43 (cf. Drp. 292), 2 S 15:26 (in resignation: cf. Gn 44:16; 50:18 Jos 9:25 Ezr 9:15): of God Is 52:6; 58:9; 65:1(×2) (repeated for emphasis). In the pl. ה�*�*ו Nu 14:40 Je 3:22 Jb 38:35.—Emph. הִ�*ְ�*ִי ָ֕א�*ִי Ez 34:11, 20, cf. 6:3. On … הִ�*ְ�*ִי אֶל, v. אל 4, p. 40. b. introducing clauses involving predication: (a) with ref. to the past or present, it points generally to some truth either newly asserted, or newly recognised, Gn 1:29 behold! I have given to you all herbs etc. 17:20; 27:6 1 S 14:33 etc.; often one upon which some proposal or suggestion is to be founded, Ex 1:9 (cf. הן Gn 11:6) 1 S 20:2, 5; 2 K 5:20. When the proposal is to be of the nature of an entreaty or request, הִ�*ֵּה־�*ָא is often used, instead of the simple הִ�*ֵּה Gn 12:11; 16:2; 18:27 1 K 20:31; 22:13 al. (v. �*ָא). (b) with ref. to the future. Here it serves to introduce a solemn or important declaration Ex 32:34; 34:10 Is 7:14; and is used especially with the ptcp. (the fut. instans, Dr§ 135, 3) in predictions or threats, Gn 20:3 הִ�*ְּךָ מֵת (lit.) behold thee (accus.) about to die, thou art about to die, Ex 4:23; 7:17; 9:3 Dt 31:16 1 S 3:11 1 K 20:36; 22:25 Is 3:1; 10:33; 17:1; 19:1; 22:17; 24:1 + often; in the phrase ימים באים ה�*ה �*1 S 2:31 2 K 20:17 = Is 39:6 Am 4:2; 8:11; 9:13 + Je 15 times; very often with the suffix of 1 ps. sg., as הִ�*ְ�*ִי מֵבִיא Behold, I bring (lit. behold me bringing, or about to bring) … Gn 6:17 Ex 10:4 & often, especially in Je; Gn 9:9 Ex 8:17; 9:18; 34:11 2 K 22:20 Is 13:17; 29:14; 43:19 Je 8:17; 11:22 (הִ�*ְ�*ִי פֹקֵד; so 23:2 + ) 16:16; 20:4, etc.; anomalously, with change of person, Is 28:16 הִ�*ְ�*ִי יִסַּד (according to points) behold me, one who has founded, 29:14 הִ�*ְ�*ִי יֹוסִף behold me, one who will add (so 38:5); but it is dub. whether the ptcp. יֹסֵד, יֹוסֵף should not be read. c. … וְהִ�*ֵּה very freq. in historical style, especially (but not exclusively) after verbs of seeing or discovering, making the narrative graphic and vivid, and enabling the reader to enter into the surprise or satisfaction of the speaker or actor concerned: Gn 1:31 and behold, it was very good, 6:12; 8:13; 15:12; 18:2; 37:29 Ex 2:6 Dt 9:13 etc.: in the description of a dream Gn 37:7, 9; 40:9, 16; 41:1, 2, 3 Is 29:8, or of a vision Am 7:1, 4; 8:1 etc. With a ptcp. (the context fixing the sense to the past), Gn 24:30; 37:15 (both without suffix); Ju 9:43; 11:34 1 K 19:5, 11 +. d. like II. הֵן (b), nearly = if (rare): Lv 13:5, 6, 8, 10 (& elsewhere in this nad the next ch.) וְהִ�*ֵּה and behold = and if, Dt 13:15 and 17:4 וְהִ�*ֵּה אֱמֶת and behold it is true = and if it be true, 19:18 1 S 20:12; cf. 1 S 9:7 2 S 18:11 Ho 9:6; with ו׳ in apod. 2 K 10:9.

Brown, F., Driver, S. R., & Briggs, C. A. 2000. Enhanced Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon. Strong's, TWOT, and GK references Copyright 2000 by Logos Research Systems, Inc. (electronic ed.) . Logos Research Systems: Oak Harbor, WA


JW:
BDB has categorized 7:14 as a declaration for the future. But note the category above "a. pointing to persons or things". Biblical Hebrew A Text and Workbook indicates that הִנה emphasizes presence and immediacy. As the Context is Isaiah presenting this prediction to Ahaz in the Royal Court and "the young woman" is referred to, it seems to me that the Likely meaning of הִנה here is "Behold" as in physically pointing to a present young woman.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

Timetospend

For what it is worth, my view is that this verse has both an immediate and future fulfillment. Much of this can be seen in the analyzing:
Isa 8:18
18 Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion.
ASV

I will certainly bow to those who have a better understanding of Hebrew than me (and that would not take much), but there is much common terminology between 7:14 and 8:20. The context of 8:20 continues through 9:7 and clearly shows both present and future events, and that the child is more than a simple child of Isaiah.

Of course, Heb 2:13 quotes the first part of 8:20 stating a fulfilment of the verse in Jesus.

Just my view.

Thanks,

aa5874

I now regard Isaiah 7.14 to be of virtually no significance, since Isaiah chapter 7 has no bearing whatsoever to do with the Jesus of the NT. And furthermore, Isaiah 7.8 gives a timeline of 65 years for these events .

JoeWallack

JW:
Regarding the:
×”Ö´נ×”
H N H
Behold!

of 7:14 the question is which category of usage does it fall into. BDB gives the following categories:

A) Pointing to persons or things.

B) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the past or present.

C) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the future.

BDB categorizes the 7:14 usage as C) but what does the evidence indicate?:

×”Ö´נ×”
H N H
Behold!

הָעַלְמָה
HML ( H
the young woman

הָרָה
HR H
has conceived

וְיֹלֶדֶת
TDLYW
and will give birth

בֵּן
NB
a son

וְקָרָאת
T) RKW
and you will call


The issue here is does ×”Ö´נ×” here point to a person or a prediction. We have the following evidence that הִ�*×” here points to a person:

1) ×”Ö´נ×” has a basic emphasis of "presence" and "immediacy" so the most likely meaning in general is pointing to a person and this is the first meaning BDB gives.

2) The definite noun הָעַלְמָה (the young woman) follows ×”Ö´נ×” making it likely that the young woman is specifically what is being pointed to.

3) The context is Isaiah addressing Ahaz in the Royal Court and reference to "the young woman", who is not previously identified, indicates that Isaiah is visually identifying the woman.

4) The text indicates the young woman possesses an important physical quality, has conceived/is pregnant.

5) The Subject of the Verse is the son so in order to be able to identify prophecy fulfillment Ahaz must know who the mother is.

6) Isaiah uses ×”Ö´נ×” again at:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Isaiah_8:18

"Behold, I and the children whom Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from Jehovah of hosts, who dwelleth in mount Zion. (ASV)"

which clearly points not only to a person but the specific son in 7:14.

Thus it is Likely that the ×”Ö´נ×” of 7:14 points to a person (the young woman) who was physically present.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

PS - Nun code = &#1504 with an ";" at the end.

manwithdream

Joe,

Why do you say "has conceived"? I thought it is the present tense "is pregnant."

I read your arguments on B-hebrew. You really like discussing Isaiah 7:14 a lot.

Manwithdream

llamaluvr

What if it's not a prophecy by the strictest of definitions but is more of a type? In any literary form, types still need to be fulfilled, or else they're not really types. Regardless of whether or not it's an outright prophecy, if you were reading Isaiah 7-9 one day, and the next you found out about a virgin giving birth to the Son of God, the connection would be unmistakable. That's what a good type does in literature, I think- when you get to the end, you can connect the dots backwards.

Jack the Bodiless

There is no "virgin birth" described. Otherwise, you don't have to "connect the dots backwards" very far, as the "type" is fulfilled in Isaiah 8.

Jayhawker Soule

That impresses me as far more convenient than compelling.

I suspect that Isaiah was speaking of a first-born son and that the almah/betulah 'controversy' is an underwhelming distraction.

JoeWallack

JW:
Continuing the question regarding the:
הִנה
H N H
Behold!

of 7:14 and which category of usage does it fall into, and noting that BDB gives the following categories:

A) Pointing to persons or things.

B) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the past or present.

C) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the future.

and categorizes the 7:14 usage as C), let's look at the combination of

הִנה
H N H
Behold!

and

הָרָה
HR H
has conceived

in the Jewish Bible:

Verse List


Genesis 16:11

וַיֹּ֤אמֶר לָהּ֙ מַלְאַ֣ךְ יְהוָ֔ה הִנךְ הָרָ֖ה וְיֹלַ֣דְתְּ בֵּ֑ן וְקָרָ֤את שְׁמֹו֙ יִשְׁמָעֵ֔אל כִּֽי־שָׁמַ֥ע יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־עָ�*ְיֵֽךְ׃

"And the angel of Jehovah said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son; and thou shalt call his name Ishmael, because Jehovah hath heard thy affliction. (ASV)"


Genesis 38:24

וַיְהִ֣י׀ כְּמִשְׁלֹ֣שׁ חֳדָשִׁ֗ים וַיֻּגַּ֨ד לִֽיהוּדָ֤ה לֵֽאמֹר֙ זָֽ�*ְתָה֙ תָּמָ֣ר כַּלָּתֶ֔ךָ וְגַ֛ם הִנה הָרָ֖ה לִזְ�*וּ�*ִ֑ים וַיֹּ֣אמֶר יְהוּדָ֔ה הֹוצִיא֖וּהָ וְתִשָּׂרֵֽף׃

"And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter-in-law hath played the harlot; and moreover, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt. (ASV)"


Judges 13:3

וַיֵּרָ֥א מַלְאַךְ־יְהוָ֖ה אֶל־הָאִשָּׁ֑ה וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֵלֶ֗יהָ הִנה־�*א אַתְּ־עֲקָרָה֙ וְלֹ֣א יָלַ֔דְתְּ וְהָרִ֖ית וְיָלַ֥דְתְּ בֵּֽן׃

"And the angel of Jehovah appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not; but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. (ASV)


Judges 13:5

כִּי֩ הִנךְ הָרָ֜ה וְיֹלַ֣דְתְּ בֵּ֗ן וּמֹורָה֙ לֹא־יַעֲלֶ֣ה עַל־רֹאשֹׁ֔ו כִּֽי־�*ְזִ֧יר אֱלֹהִ֛ים יִהְיֶ֥ה הַ�*ַּ֖עַר מִן־הַבָּ֑טֶן וְה֗וּא יָחֵ֛ל לְהֹושִׁ֥יעַ אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מִיַּ֥ד פְּלִשְׁתִּֽים׃

"for, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come upon his head; for the child shall be a Nazirite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to save Israel out of the hand of the Philistines. (ASV)"


Judges 13:7

וַיֹּ֣אמֶר לִ֔י הִנךְ הָרָ֖ה וְיֹלַ֣דְתְּ בֵּ֑ן וְעַתָּ֞ה אַל־תִּשְׁתִּ֣י׀ יַ֣יִן וְשֵׁכָ֗ר וְאַל־תֹּֽאכְלִי֙ כָּל־טֻמְאָ֔ה כִּֽי־�*ְזִ֤יר אֱלֹהִים֙ יִהְיֶ֣ה הַ�*ַּ֔עַר מִן־הַבֶּ֖טֶן עַד־יֹ֥ום מֹותֹֽו׃ פ

"but he said unto me, Behold, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and now drink no wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing; for the child shall be a Nazirite unto God from the womb to the day of his death. (ASV)"


Psalm 7:15
15 הִנה יְחַבֶּל־אָ֑וֶן וְהָרָ֥ה עָ֝מָ֗ל וְיָ֣לַד שָֽׁקֶר׃

"He hath made a pit, and digged it, And is fallen into the ditch which he made. (ASV)"


Isaiah 7:14

14 לָ�*כֵן יִתֵּ֨ן אֲדֹ�*ָ֥י ה֛וּא לָכֶ֖ם אֹ֑ות הִנה הָעַלְמָ֗ה הָרָה֙ וְיֹלֶ֣דֶת בֵּ֔ן וְקָרָ֥את שְׁמֹ֖ו עִמָּ֥�*וּ אֵֽל׃

"Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (ASV)"


Jeremiah 31:8
8 הִנני֩ מֵבִ֨יא אֹותָ֜ם מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צָפֹ֗ון וְקִבַּצְתִּים֮ מִיַּרְכְּתֵי־אָרֶץ֒ בָּ֚ם עִוֵּ֣ר וּפִסֵּ֔חַ הָרָ֥ה וְיֹלֶ֖דֶת יַחְדָּ֑ו קָהָ֥ל גָּדֹ֖ול יָשׁ֥וּבוּ הֵֽ�*ָּה׃

"Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, [and] with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall they return hither. (ASV)"


JW:
By context we can inventory the categories of usage as follows (note that some can be in more than one category):

A) Pointing to persons or things.
Genesis 16:11
Genesis 38:24
Judges 13:3
Judges 13:5
Judges 13:7

B) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the past or present.
None

C) Introducing clauses involving predication with reference to the future.
Judges 13:3
Judges 13:5
Judges 13:7
Jeremiah 31:8

D) None of the above
Psalm 7:15 (Figurative - "He has conceived")


Note that when הִנה and הָרָה are part of the same phrase, as they are in 7:14, they always point to a person. Thus it is Likely, based on examples, that the הִנה of 7:14 points to a person.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

PS - Nun code = &#1504 with an ";" at the end.

Lugubert

Too busy just learning the verb forms to have an opinion of my own yet, but for comparison, the recent Swedish translation, which involved experts from many faiths, does it this way in my translation into English:
Present for the condition, and no translation of the interjection hinne.
Our 1917 used future, and "Look" for hinne.