TonyN

DBT, thanks for bringing that article to light. If you will read the rest of the article you will note that the author is actually proving that aiwn (eon) and its adjectival form aiwnion (eonian) do not ever mean eternal. I actually personally knew that scholar and visited with him on several occassions before his death years ago.

TonyN

Let me get this straight. If you came to visit me and I said, Ben, you may eat the food from the Greatroom or from the Diningroom, you would think both rooms are the exact same room?

Ben C Smith

No, of course not. Nor do I see what that has to do with the holy places in the tabernacle. There are two places; one is called the holy place, the other the holiest place. The expression holy of holies is basically a superlative, meaning holiest.

Likewise, in this verse, there are two foods being discussed; there is holy food, and there is the holiest food.

My point is that counting the number of holies in each expression is futile (as if to find some difference between holy of holies and holies of holies), as the LXX translators knew.

Your procedure so far would mean that the verse at hand is redundant. On your chart, the singular holy of holies refers to one chamber, while the plural holies of holies refers to both. So what do these two expressions in Leviticus 21.22 refer to? They are both plural; but one is superlative, as well.

Ben.

TonyN

The chart shows the holy of holies residing within the "holies of holies."

Holy of holies is not a proper noun. It does not always refer to the tabernacle. But you are correct that in the case of "the holies of the holies" it is superlative in that they are the greatest holy parts of the tabernacle system of the holies that went before.

The food called "the holies of holies" was the holiest food the priest could eat. He could also eat from the holies.

Where it is stated "And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall be reigning for the eons of the eons! Amen!'" (Rev 11:15), that is future. It was written when? Maybe 98 AD-ish? So the writer was still looking forward to the day when Christ would reign. "the eons" is plural and "of the eons" is plural. The eons to come are the greatest eons that have ever been. They are superlative in that sense. They are the greatest eons of the eons that went before.

Ben C Smith

I do not think you have handled my objections here.

According to your chart, the holy in holy of holies is singular because it refers to one single chamber, the innermost. Likewise, the first holies in the expression holies of holies is plural because it refers to both chambers. Finally, the solo term holy is singular because it refers to one single chamber, this time the outermost of the two.

In other words, the logic that you find in those terms is one of taking the singulars and plurals literally.

Now, I have already noted that the transmission history stands against your view. The LXX translators translated the Hebrew term holy of holies sometimes with a singular (holy of holies), sometimes with a plural (holies of holies).

Furthermore, there is Hebrews 9.2-3, where the outer chamber is called the holies and the inner chamber is called the holies of holies. On your view, where the plurals matter, both of these would have to be referring to both chambers, right? Yet these verses make a clear distinction. Exodus 26.33 makes this same distinction, but with the singular both times (the holy and the holy of holies).

Here are the verses for comparison. First, Hebrews 9.2-3:

For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holies. And behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the holies of holies.

Second, Exodus 26.33:

And you shall hang up the veil under the clasps, and shall bring in the ark of the testimony there within the veil; and the veil shall serve for you as a partition between the holy and the holy of holies.

Can your model explain why the outer chamber is called both the holy and the holies? Can your model explain why the inner chamber is called both the holy of holies and the holies of holies? Do you not see how your chart draws a distinction between holy of holies and holies of holies where none exists?

Ben.

TonyN

Ben, the LXX is just a translation, that's all. It is kind of like the King James Version of our day. Just because they translated certain phrases their way does not mean they were correct. Dig?

Exo 26:33 "and you will put the curtain under the links. Then you will bring there, inside the curtain, the coffer of the testimony. The curtain will separate for you between the holy place and the holy of holies;"

The holy place is comprised of the part in the tabernacle which is on the other side of the curtain. The holy of holies, which is the holiest place behind the curtain in which the priest met God was the holiest of the prior holies.

Ben C Smith

Then please ignore the LXX for just one moment and concentrate on Hebrews 9.2-3:

For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holies. And behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the holies of holies.

Compare Exodus 26.33:

And you shall hang up the veil under the clasps, and shall bring in the ark of the testimony there within the veil; and the veil shall serve for you as a partition between the holy and the holy of holies.

Can your model explain why the outer chamber is called both the holy and the holies? Can your model explain why the inner chamber is called both the holy of holies and the holies of holies? Do you not see how your chart draws a distinction between holy of holies and holies of holies where none exists?

Yes, I recall you saying this. What I am asking you now is why Hebrews calls the outer chamber the holies when Exodus calls it the holy, and why Hebrews calls the inner chamber the holies of the holies when Exodus calls it the holy of the holies.

Do you not see how this biblical equivalence breaks up your distinction between the holy of the holies and the holies of the holies?

Ben.

DBT

"Usage is always the decisive thing in determining the meanings of words."

As usage can and does change the meaning of words, surely the argument can work both ways.

If context allows Aion to be used in reference to eternity in current usage, there is no reason to say that it cannot have been used in that manner originally - as it appears that many early Christians did in fact believe in an eternal hell, punishment, seperation from God, etc...

"If we do the will of Christ, we shall obtain rest; but if not, if we neglect his commandments, nothing will rescue us from eternal punishment" (Second Clement 5:5). 150 AD

"We have been taught that only they may aim at immortality who have lived a holy and virtuous life near to God. We believe that they who live wickedly and do not repent will be punished in everlasting fire" (First Apology, 21). 150 AD Justin Martyr

"The Martyrdom of Polycarp "Fixing their minds on the grace of Christ, [the martyrs] despised worldly tortures and purchased eternal life with but a single hour. To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the eternal and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3). 155 AD

"Then will the entire race of men be restored to receive its just deserts according to what it has merited in this period of good and evil, and thereafter to have these paid out in an immeasurable and unending eternity. Then there will be neither death again nor resurrection again, but we shall be always the same as we are now, without changing. The worshippers of God shall always be with God, clothed in the proper substance of eternity. But the godless and those who have not turned wholly to God will be punished in fire equally unending, and they shall have from the very nature of this fire, divine as it were, a supply of incorruptibility" (Apology , 44:12-13). 197 AD Tertullian

TonyN

What is very interesting is that Clement did not believe in eternal punishment! He believed in Universal Reconciliation!
DBT, what you need to do is to go to the original source and not errent interpretation/mistranslations of those texts in modern English. You need to go to the Greek source of Clement.

The same goes for the rest of the quotes you provided. You really need to go to the source.

Of course usage determines meaning. In the SCRIPTURES, DBT, one can find difinitive passages which state that all the eons end. Therefore, no matter what anyone thinks and no matter how anyone translates ancient manuscripts into modern English, they [the eons] are not endless.

DBT

It's no use for me to go to the source, as my knowledge of Greek is simply not up to it.
But here I am presented with standard translations of verse - presumably done by those who are qualifed - which do state 'eternal' in reference to hell.

Yet to do as you claim, and substitute 'eternal' with 'Aionion' as a set period of time, does not fit the context of the verse, nor does it make sense.

For instance;
"To them, the fire of their cruel torturers was cold. They kept before their eyes their escape from the Aionion and unquenchable fire" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 2:3). 155 AD .... Tony, it doesn't work.

Of course one can find definitive passages which state that eons do end, but the particular reference and context in which it is used is quite clear in that instance.

The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible (vol. IV, p. 643): Time: The O.T. and the N.T are not acquainted with the conception of eternity as timelessness. The O.T. has not developed a special term for "eternity." The word aion originally meant "vital force," "life;" then "age," "lifetime." It is, however, also used generally of a (limited or unlimited) long space of time. The use of the word aion is determined very much by the O.T. and the LXX. Aion means "long distant uninterrupted time" in the past (Luke 1:10), as well as in the future (John 4:14).