Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 12-27-2008, 01:37 PM

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Originally Posted by Sheshonq

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Which does not demonstrate that the Jews rejected Moses. That verse only quotes a single person among the Jews. Here is the entire passage in context:

EXO 2:11 And it came to pass in those days, when Moses was grown, that he went out unto his brethren, and looked on their burdens: and he spied an Egyptian smiting an Hebrew, one of his brethren.
EXO 2:12 And he looked this way and that way, and when he saw that there was no man, he slew the Egyptian, and hid him in the sand.
EXO 2:13 And when he went out the second day, behold, two men of the Hebrews strove together: and he said to him that did the wrong, Wherefore smitest thou thy fellow?
EXO 2:14 And he said, Who made thee a prince and a judge over us? intendest thou to kill me, as thou killedst the Egyptian? And Moses feared, and said, Surely this thing is known.

You can't just make up stuff and expect us to swallow it, arnoldo. :rolling:

Your interpretation of Moses and his rejection at times from the Jews seems to differ from Stephen's which is documented in Acts 7:26-43

1. In the first place, you based your "Moses was rejected" claim on the reaction of one single person. That's obviously a nonsense conclusion, whether you can admit it to yourself or not.

2. Your citation of Stephen merely repeats this tale of one person rejecting Moses. It does not support your claim that the all the Jews rejected Moses.

3. Finally, citing the NT to try and prove your claim about the OT doesn't work, because you haven't proven that the NT citation is accurate. It's circular. And since we know that there are numerous places in the NT that use text from the OT in an out-of-context manner, that's a problem. You can't just plug the text in and claim that it's accurate.

There were many instances when Moses was almost killed by the Israelites who in their later years also killed prophets. Jesus is another victim on their list of slain prophets (who is in reality their Messiah).

sugarhitman · 12-27-2008, 01:53 PM

Why did Moses allow for divorce? Why did God allow Israel to have a king which he hated (and interestingly enough laws for Israeli kings were already in place before Israel had a king) Why did God allow Israelites to buy slaves from nations in which God forbade Israel from having contact with them? Simple, God had already seen in the hearts of the Israelites that they would do these things anyway which lead to their demise.

Exciter · 12-27-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Simple, God had already seen in the hearts of the Israelites that they would do these things anyway which lead to their demise.

So God let slavery exist because the Jews would have slaves anyway.

Divine reverse psychology?, lol.

sweetpea7 · 12-27-2008, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Why did Moses allow for divorce?...

But why, shm, did god not forbid these things? The book of Leviticus is filled with foolish detailed rules that god, surely, in his infinite wisdom, knew that people wouldn't follow. If this was true:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Simple, God had already seen in the hearts of the Israelites that they would do these things anyway which lead to their demise.

Why bother to make any rules at all?

Sheshonq · 12-27-2008, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

You're continually, habitually confused by what the claim being discussed is. The existence of slavery was offred as proof that hte morality of the bible is not eternal or a valuable yardstick, since modern morals have surpassed it.

If you have checked the news lately blather distraction blather....

1. Irrelevant. The point is that you can't seem to keep the topic of conversation straight. You were arguing against a claim that nobody was making because - once again - you never fucking pay attention.

2. At least modern society acknolwedges that slavery is wrong and has largely eradicated it. That's a claim that he bible can't make.

Sheshonq · 12-27-2008, 04:14 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

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Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Better yet, for an even more scholarly examination, please read all of Elaine Pagel's and Bart Ehrman's major books.

Both of those individuals support christianity, try again. . .

Again you miss the point - deliberately.

You were given these references to Pagel and Ehrman to show you what a real citation and scholary discussion looks like. Why? Because based upon the links you've tried to put forth so far, you obviously can't tell the difference between

(a) scholarly discussion and
(b) tabloid or apologetic nonsense.

Sheshonq · 12-27-2008, 04:17 PM

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Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

But that does not apply to the immoral double-standard of treatment for Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves in the Old Testament because the double-standard issue is not about the abolishment of slavery. It is about a double- standard. . .

Just a note to state that the above quote attributed to me is from Defending the Bible’s Position on Slavery by Kyle Butt, M.A.

Which is irrelevant, because YOU were the one who told us that this lame apologetics website was a source for "scholarly discussion". If you can't defend what your sources say then don't put them forth as sources in the first place. You've been warned about that before, arnoldo. Learn the damn lesson, willya?

Sheshonq · 12-27-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

There were many instances when Moses was almost killed by the Israelites

Oh yeah?
Cite these instances. Use both sides of the paper if necessary.

BWAHAHAHHAA!

Sheshbazzar · 12-27-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Simple, God had already seen in the hearts of the Israelites that they would do these things anyway which lead to their demise.

Let's see now, God didn't make a law abolishing slavery -because- "the Israelites would do these things anyway"?
Yet the fact that "they would do these things anyway" didn't seem to get in the way of him making laws that forbade the worship of other gods?
Or laws about all of those other- "things"- that they -"would do anyway"?

Johnny Skeptic · 12-27-2008, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Truly, the teachings of the Lord and the apostles would have abolished slavery like no other social reform system ever known. As Herb Vander Lugt accurately observed:

"Jesus and the apostles didn’t go on an anti-slavery crusade, because doing so would have been futile and a hindrance to their primary mission. The priority of Jesus was the provision of salvation."

But the main issue in this thread is not anti-slavery, it is the immoral double-standard of treatment for Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves in the Old Testament.

Since God greatly hinders Christians' primary mission with hurricanes and typhoons, I find it be be quite odd that you mentioned the word "hindrance." If God stopped killing people with hurricanes, would that be a hindrance to Christians' primary mission? Of course not, it would be a help, so please do not embarrass yourself my bringing up what is and is not a hindrance.

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12-27-2008, 01:53 PM	#512
sugarhitman Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: georgia Posts: 2,726	Why did Moses allow for divorce? Why did God allow Israel to have a king which he hated (and interestingly enough laws for Israeli kings were already in place before Israel had a king) Why did God allow Israelites to buy slaves from nations in which God forbade Israel from having contact with them? Simple, God had already seen in the hearts of the Israelites that they would do these things anyway which lead to their demise.

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