Steven Carr

Any evidence that the Gospels were used as preaching tools when Mark was writing?

Thought not.
Still, at least Evangelion can see that Paul is not claiming that Jesus prayed using the word 'Abba'. Jesus might have done, so, but Galatians 4:6 claims no such thing.

And Layman is presumably going to retract his claim that 'Abba, Father' was 'on the lips of Jesus'.

Just as he will retract his ill-researched claim that 'Abba' was unique to Christianity.

Steven Carr

Witherington continues to baffle.

If a foreign word has been imported into another practice or culture, then there is no need to provide a translation, n'est ce pas?

If it was common coin for non-Aramaic speaking Christians to say 'Abba', because they felt that was the mot juste, then why was there a need to juxtapose the Greek equivalent?

Presumably Christians always juxtaposed the Greek equivalent of 'Amen', as well.

After all, there was a need to juxtapose Greek equivalents. Just ask Witherington.

Layman

This has nothing to do with my comments.

By definition, a direct address to God is a prayer.

You only see what you want to see. I said, "Even if." So far you've referred to a book without citing it at all. I assume you have not read it. You have provided no examples to support the idea that I was mistaken. When and if you provide the evidence, I will admit a mistake.

That's silly.

Steven Carr

I read the book years ago and no longer have it.

Both Toto and I gave examples. You are just making yourself look bad here, with your stated refusal to check out your claims.......

Layman

Eventually it likely did reach this point. Matthew no longer uses Abba, just "My Father." (Matth. 26:36). So too with Luke, using "Father." (Luke 22:43). But what baffles is that Witherington agrees with you. That Mark is giving the Greek translation of the word. So now are you arguing that Jesus said both words?

Perhaps one reason that this phrase and its translation remained linked for the time it did was that it was distinct not only from Greek culture, but also from the Diaspora--which did not speak Aramaic regularly.

Layman

References to primary evidence? I am sorry that I missed them. But will check them if you refer me. So, where?

Steven Carr

It was you who started throwing around language like 'Abba, Father' was 'on the lips of Jesus'.

Layman quotes ''What is stricking (sic) about this prayer language here is that the Aramaic is juxtaposed with the Greek, and even more striking if the fact that the one time we find this language on the lips of Jesus in Mk. 14.36, we find exactly the same form -- literary (sic) 'abba, the Father' or 'abba, Father'

And we should ask ourself why Matthew and Luke wanted no part of having Jesus call God 'Abba', if Witherngton is correct such a thing had become common currency among Christians, both Aramaic-speaking and non-Aramaic speaking, and it was known that the term had come from Jesus himself.

(Paul claim it came from the Spirit of the Son, which appears to be a claim that it was a mystical revelation from Jesus)

Steven Carr

Look in the Vermes book.

Sorry to have to do your research for you, but such is the anti-intellectualism of the Christian Cadre, that they will make wild claims and boast that they will not check them out unless called on them.

Layman

I intend to check out Vermes' book when I can get my hands on it. I respect his scholarship and have read some of his articles but not purchased that particular book. I am also aware that others have responded to Vermes on this point. His is not the only, or the last, word on the issue. But it is typical of you to act as if your vague reference is proof of all.

Nice try at pigen-holing but the reality it that you are referring to a book you can't remember and have no primary evidence to support your claims. And any failing of mine is mine, not the Cadre's as a whole.

Layman

Yes, and I clarified that the person I was quoting believed Mark used the original Aramaic "Abba" and provided a Greek translation.

I think the evidence is quite strong that such usage was widespread, irrespective of Witherington. James Dunn and Joseph Fitzmyer also share this issue. So too C.K. Barrett.

And it is going quite too far say that Matthew and Luke "wanted no part" of it. We don't know why they did not follow Mark on this. They may have seen no real reason to do so by their time.

OHHHH, that is what you are getting at. Actually, it appears to me to be a reference to the Spirit that the Son had sent. Acts 1:1-8