gnosis92

Two days ago was ASH WEDNSDAY.

I saw A LOT OF PEOPLE WITH ASHES IN A PLUS SHAPE on their forehead.

THE ASHES REPRESENT REPETENCE and the burning of PALM LEAVES.

So what? Who cares?

Well it got me thinking of MJ. No, not Michael Jordan. Mythical Jesus theory.

If the early Jewish mystics-Christian forerunners believed in a purely spiritual figure who was crucified in heavenly realms, why did they date this mythical even on Passover, when the central message of Christ's death on the cross is
atonement of sins, and reconcilliation of sinners with God?

If the early Jewish mystics were going to fabricate a messiah out of thin air, wholecloth, figure against the backgroup of Jewish messianic expectations, why wouldn't they invent their mythical diety's cruxifiction on Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of repentance, considered to be one of the holiest and most solemn days of the year. Its central theme is atonement and reconciliation?

For that manner, why even envision death on a cross, as opposed to say, burnt offering as described in boringly great detail in the Torah on animal sacrifice?

The Torah even says "cursed is he who hangs on a tree", and "the smell of burnt offerings is pleasing to the Lord".

The MJ position would be considerably more persuasive to me if they envision a "figure" who was "burned to death" in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies, on Yom Kippur, "to take away the sins of the world", and if you're going to fabricate, why not fabricate this story, more in line with Jewish thinking? It would be a midrash closely mimicking Abraham's sacrifice of Isaac, for example.

If Jews were starting from scratch, in the contact that ash cloth and repetence and ashes and burnt offerings, I would expect them to concoct a story of a figure who on YOM KIPPUR went to the HOLY OF HOLIES and offered himself as a burnt offering, and became a pile of ashes, as a midrash to Lot's wife who became a pillar of salt from Sodom and Gomorrah, with a voice, heard by all the Jews (goes with Jewish apologetic that Moses revealed the Torah to the entire nation of Israel on Sinai) that burnt offerings will no longer be needed as his Son was the final BURNT OFFERING in the HOLY OF HOLIES on YOM KIPPUR. Prior to his self-sacrifice (i.e SPONTANEOUS HUMAN COMBUSTION) in the HOLY OF HOLIES, this figure reminds the Jews TO KEEP THE OBSERVANCE OF THE TORAH AS YOUR MITZVOH (something Jesus DOES NOT DO).

Such a story, told in this way, would be what I would expect from a mythical savior-figure stated in Old Testament prophesy that would be completely unhistorical, yet historical sounding. Jews could commenerate this event on ASH WEDNSDAY by putting Ash on their foreheads to commenerate when YHWH sent his one and only son, like Abraham and Isaac, to be the burnt offering, on YOM KIPPUR, and burned himself up (EVER HEAR OF SPONTANEOUS HUMAN COMBUSTION???) AND WAS WITNESSED BY THE ENTIRE NATION OF ISRAEL.

Furthermore, were to fabricate such a story, out of thin air, which is consistent with Jewish beliefs, they would be far more successful in persuading other skeptical Jews than the story we currently have, which I believe is based on history.

Toto

The symbols around Jesus seem to relate in particular to Moses, his chief lieutenant Joshua (=Jesus) son of Nun, the Exodus, reclaiming the land of Isreal, and such events. The Messiah was envisioned as a new Moses.

Gamera

Good post, gnosis. Just to focus on this narrowly, the cross issue is a good point. What is the JM explanation of the cross? The patristic explanation is clearly after the fact and historical -- they were stuck with a guy who died by the Roman practice of crucifixion so they tried to relate it to OT messianic "prophesies" about dying on a tree (which just isn't really a cross). Or being lifted up (like the snake figure in Exodus, again not much of a cross)

But as gnosis points out, if a mythologist is starting from scratch, why use a cross at all? It reeks of historicity.

MortalWombat

Fabricating out of thin air wholecloth? "Mythologists" starting from scratch?

What MJ authors have actually said this? Granted, I've only read Doherty and Price, so please enlighten me.

gnosis92

Gospels and Paul = Jesus existed was baptized by John, who existed, and at Caiphas request, who existed, was crucified under Pilate, who existed. Paul, who existed, met James, the brother of the Lord, who existed, and Cephas-Peter, who existed. The early Christians and pagan authors several decades later believed Jesus existed as a figure of history, as did Josepheus.

MJ = Jesus never existed.

Which MJ does NOT take the position that Jesus is a fabrication?

gnosis92

Why thank you

GakuseiDon

Acharya believes that Jesus was the "Sun" of God, and the sun was "crucified between the equinoxes":
http://www.truthbeknown.com/origins5.htm

The sun "dies" for three days on December 22nd, the winter solstice, when it stops in its movement south, to be born again or resurrected on December 25th, when it resumes its movement north.
In some areas, the calendar originally began in the constellation of Virgo, and the sun would therefore be "born of a Virgin."
The sun is the "Light of the World."
The sun "cometh on clouds, and every eye shall see him."
The sun rising in the morning is the "Savior of mankind."
The sun wears a corona, "crown of thorns" or halo.
The sun "walks on water."
The sun's "followers," "helpers" or "disciples" are the 12 months and the 12 signs of the zodiac or constellations, through which the sun must pass.
The sun at 12 noon is in the house or temple of the "Most High"; thus, "he" begins "his Father's work" at "age" 12.
The sun enters into each sign of the zodiac at 30°; hence, the "Sun of God" begins his ministry at "age" 30.
The sun is hung on a cross or "crucified," which represents its passing through the equinoxes, the vernal equinox being Easter, at which time it is then resurrected.

jakejonesiv

You shouldn't get too "hung up" on the crucifixtion. There is an alternate end for Jesus where he is hung on a tree.

With the appropriate role reversal, you can find the prototype for many of the details of execution narrative in Joshua 10:16-27, including the guards at the cave/tomb, sealed by rolling a large rock in front of the entrance, taking the bodies down at sunset, etc.

Jake Jones IV

Malachi151

I thought that this was pretty straight forward, Jesus is the Passover Lamb, which is a redemptive sacrifice for the annulment of sins.

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._history.htm#5

Gamera

This is vintage mythicism. They take "mythic texts" (almost all post-Christian and inevitably written hundreds or even a thousand years after the alleged myth was part of a practicing religion), use loose concepts like "die" and then turn it into a crucifixion. If there was ever an example of retrojection, it's this kind of analysis.

As I proved on another tread, using this kind of "analysis" I showed indisputably that Jesus was a myth created out of the Ikea Catalog introductory text.