Freethought & Rationalism Archive

show_no_mercy · 11-27-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Here it is found by the back door.

Lk 2:42
And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival [of Passover]....After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josephus' Life 1.2 8 (speculative)
I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm#Twelve

You may find that site interesting, unless you know about it already.

Ah right, its 'Mark' you're interested in, sorry, ignore the above.

Notice that at the beginning of Josephus' autobiography, he describes going out into the wilderness to be a disciple of an ascetic, slightly mirroring Jesus' baptism at the beginning of Mark.

Quote:

I was informed that one, whose name was Banus, lived in the desert, and used no other clothing than grew upon trees, and had no other food than what grew of its own accord, and bathed himself in cold water fequently, both by night and by day

And after living in the desert with this guy, Josephus finds his calling and chooses his religion.

JoeWallack · 11-28-2009, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yalla

Here it is found by the back door.

Lk 2:42
And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival [of Passover]....After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josephus' Life 1.2 8 (speculative)
I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm#Twelve

You may find that site interesting, unless you know about it already.

Ah right, its 'Mark' you're interested in, sorry, ignore the above.

JW:
Actually I take the evidence that "Luke" used Josephus as a source, as evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a source. Dr. Carrier, a real historian, unlike the mythical Gospel historians, has demonstrated that "Luke" used Josephus as a source:

Luke and Josephus

We should go into this study with an expectation that "Luke" used Josephus as a source since Josephus was recognized as the authoritative historian of Jesus' supposed time. So the evidence from "Luke" just needs to be complimentary to Josephus. When "Luke" claims to have "researched" all it means is that she looked for coordination with Josephus since that was real history. For example, "Luke" rejects the slaughter of the innocents since Josephus doesn't mention it. Not historical. She instead uses the Quirinius' census for her infancy narrative since that was historical. "Luke" demonstrates that a Gospeller used Josephus as a source which makes it more likely that fellow Gospellers did likewise.

When I demonstrated that the trail of the TF leads directly to Eusebius:

Say It Ain't So Joe. Testimonium Flavium. Will Eusebius Be Convicted In Civil Court?

I was surprised to see the extent of Patristic interest in Josephus. Ironically, Roger Pearse got me started on this project when he posited, in defense of the TF, why any Patristic would be interested in Josephus. I know from experience, that when starting a scholarly inquiry it is usually safe to start with the opposite question of Roger's, why wouldn't a Patristic be interested in Josephus. Sure enough the research showed huge Patristic interest in Josephus, but the surprise is that I daresay, the specifics of Josephus are referred to more by Patristics than any other non-Christian author. Homer may be referred to more by name.

The point here though again is that "Mark" does not need to show much quality evidence of Josephus as a source since we start with an expectation that he was probably was. For "Mark" especially (compared to the other Gospels) as "Mark" has Josephus provenance (Rome, early 1st century).

Josephus

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 05-27-2010, 05:57 AM

JW:
Looks like "Mark" may have had another source in addition to Imagination, Paul, The Jewish Bible & Greek Tragedy = Philo

Super Skeptic Neil Godfree is at it again looking for clues:

An overlooked source for Mark’s gospel?

and the smoking gun:

FLACCUS VI

Quote:

VI. (36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas, afflicted not with a wild, savage, and dangerous madness (for that comes on in fits without being expected either by the patient or by bystanders), but with an intermittent and more gentle kind; this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths; (37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state. (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign; (40) when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disguisedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king and a friend of Caesar, and one who had been honoured by the Roman senate with imperial authority; but he not only did not punish them, but he did not think fit even to check them, but gave complete license and impunity to all those who designed ill, and who were disposed to show their enmity and spite to the king, pretending not to see what he did see, and not to hear what he did hear.

Some interesting parallels. Clark's Criteria for valid parallels would need to be used to do it properly, especially analysis of the same words being used.

There is also the general argument that "Mark" was clearly well read as evidenced by the known sources (a long way from a simple, illiterate fisherman) and thus would likely have been familiar with Philo, a major Jewish author of the offending time period.

Joseph

ErrancyWiki

Toto · 05-27-2010, 10:20 AM

We've been over the Philo connection before.

The use of Philo by the gospel writers from the archives, 200, with a cast of familiar combattants

But there is much more in the unfortunately out of print The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Leidner, which was discussed on these boards in 2003 here. In particular, in The Passion Narrative and Philo I summarized Leidner's 24 parallels between the Passion narrative and Philo. (Some of these points might not apply to Mark's version of the passion.)

If you do more deep searching in the archives (and the archives of the archives) you will find more on Leidner. Some of his book seems useful, some not so much.

JoeWallack · 07-01-2011, 08:39 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:

Correspondent: Paul Tobin

Link: The Burial

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.

6) "Mark's" Evangelist brother "Luke" clearly used Josephus as a source.

Correspondent: Richard Carrier

Link: Luke and Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).

It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.

7) The External evidence indicates "Mark" is early second century and at this time Josephus would have been the recent and authoritative source for the history of the background to "Mark's" story.

Correspondent: Joe Wallack

Link: The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

7) Papias c. 125

Aware of written Sayings of Jesus by Peter/"Mark" and "Matthew"

No Evidence of "The Passion"

No Evidence of "The Simontic
Problem"

No Evidence of Infancy Narrative

No Evidence of Paul

...
We may be creating an Intersection here for the creation of "Mark". Papias testifies that c. 125 he is not aware of any written Gospel Narrative and this is Confirmed by Eusebius who Reviews all available Church writings looking for the earliest evidence for the Canonical Gospels. Clement c. 110 shows the first evidence of an increasing Church hierarchy. Thus, the Motivation for "Mark" to write an anti-hierarchal Gospel exists starting c. 110. The earliest reference to use of a Canonical Gospel is Marcion c. 135. This suggests a dating range for "Mark" of 110 - 135.

8) Josephus' Hyrcanus has his ear cut off to disqualify him from the High Priesthood. "Mark's" servant of the High Priest has his ear cut off trying to disqualify Jesus from the High Priesthood

Correspondent: Dave Hindley

Link: http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=15

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Antiquities of the Jews 14:365-366 365 And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians [and reinstalled in his office], and received [from the Parthians] Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners ... 366 but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was [still at that point] under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude [once the Parthians left], he cut off his [i.e., Hyrcanus'] ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire.

...
Quote:

Mark 14:47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.

9) Josephus says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus. "Mark" says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus:

Correspondent: Joe Wallack

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...phus/war4.html

2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war. And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus.

As my ancestor Caiphas used to say, "what more evidence do we need" (that "Mark" used Josephus). Thus we have it on good authority that Josephus was a major source for "Mark" and that "Mark" is securely dated to 2nd century.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

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05-27-2010, 10:20 AM	#24
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	We've been over the Philo connection before. The use of Philo by the gospel writers from the archives, 200, with a cast of familiar combattants But there is much more in the unfortunately out of print The Fabrication of the Christ Myth by Leidner, which was discussed on these boards in 2003 here. In particular, in The Passion Narrative and Philo I summarized Leidner's 24 parallels between the Passion narrative and Philo. (Some of these points might not apply to Mark's version of the passion.) If you do more deep searching in the archives (and the archives of the archives) you will find more on Leidner. Some of his book seems useful, some not so much.

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