Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 06-10-2008, 08:03 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

The best evidence I've seen is what has already been Revealed on these holy Boards via superior Skeptic correspondent Neal Godfree:

http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Quote:

The Whiston translation of Josephus' War of the Jews (6.300-309)

But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" (Jer.7:34 LXX) This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Neil Godfrey
2006
http://vridar.wordpress.com

I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between the Passion of Josephus' Jesus and "Mark's" Jesus. Note especially the Irony of JJ (Josephus' Jesus) predicting the demise of the Temple and than being killed by the Temple (but not before he predicted that he would be).

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 06-11-2008, 07:25 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

The next best evidence I've seen has also already been Revealed on these blessed and holy Boards via yours truly:

Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Quote:

JW:
In perhaps the greatest compilation since Mishnah Torah we have now demonstrated that "Gerasenes" was likely original to Mark 5.1 based on:

1) Patristic evidence of Origen, Eusebius and Jerome.

2) Manuscript evidence including Sinaiticus and Vaticanus (4th century).

3) Authority.

4) Synoptic Copying by "Matthew" and "Luke" (including P75 - 3rd century).

We have also demonstrated that the "Gerasenes" or the area around the city of Gerasa does not fit the geographical requirements of the Jewrassic Pork story as Gerasa is about 35 miles from the Sea of Galilee. In addition, the story seems to be completely based on the Impossible and therefore has no Historical core. This opens up the Possibility that the author had a Literary reason for selecting Gerasenes and did not intend to narrate a historical event but rather intended to make a Theological point.

"Mark" is commonly thought to have been written shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem c. 70 CE. Looking through significant events leading to the destruction as documented by Josephus we see possible Parallel references between:

1) Rome's Historical conquest of Jerusalem

and

2) Jesus' Fictional conguest of Jerusalem

http://members.aol.com/FlJosephus2/w...nology5Pg3.htm

1) Start of Mission to Conquer Jerusalem:

---The Historical Roman campaign starts from Caesarea.

---Jesus Fictional campaign starts from Caesarea:

-----Mark 8:

"27 Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?"

28 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets."

29 "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Peter answered, "You are the Christ.[b]"

30 Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him.

31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again.

32He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him."

2) Historical Roman capture of Roman built Gerasa temporarily taken over by Jewish Rebels

Mark 5:
"1 They went across the lake to the region of the Gerasenes.[a] 2When Jesus got out of the boat, a man with an evil[b] spirit came from the tombs to meet him. 3This man lived in the tombs, and no one could bind him any more, not even with a chain. 4For he had often been chained hand and foot, but he tore the chains apart and broke the irons on his feet. No one was strong enough to subdue him. 5Night and day among the tombs and in the hills he would cry out and cut himself with stones.

6 When he saw Jesus from a distance, he ran and fell on his knees in front of him. 7He shouted at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? Swear to God that you won't torture me!" 8For Jesus had said to him, "Come out of this man, you evil spirit!"

9 Then Jesus asked him, "What is your name?"

"My name is Legion," he replied, "for we are many." 10And he begged Jesus again and again not to send them out of the area.

11 A large herd of pigs was feeding on the nearby hillside. 12The demons begged Jesus, "Send us among the pigs; allow us to go into them." 13He gave them permission, and the evil spirits came out and went into the pigs. The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned.

14 Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. 15When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. 16Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. 17Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.

18 As Jesus was getting into the boat, the man who had been demon-possessed begged to go with him. 19Jesus did not let him, but said, "Go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord has done for you, and how he has had mercy on you." 20So the man went away and began to tell in the Decapolis[c]how much Jesus had done for him. And all the people were amazed."

JW:
Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

Thus with a Narrative that can not be Historical it's quite Possible that "Mark" intended a Figurative comparison of Jesus' Peaceful conquest of Jerusalem with Rome's violent conquest of Jerusalem. And, in an Irony that I think "Mark" would really appreciate, "Jesus" did eventually conquer Rome peacefully which is probably the best evidence for Christianity.

JW:
I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between Josephus' Roman's conquest of Jerusalem and "Mark's" Jesus' conquest of Jerusalem. Note especially the Demon's name of "Legion".

Also note that regarding the quality of evidence for a Source, the Larger the scope of the parallels, the better the evidence.

To give some perspective at this early point in the investigation consider already where it is easier to find "Mark's Jesus. In the Jewish Bible or Josephus?

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

neilgodfrey · 06-12-2008, 04:12 PM

1. The designation of Herod as King

Jerry Camery-Hoggatt, Irony in Mark's Gospel, p.145:

Quote:

There are three ways in which this story may reflect the movements of irony. The first is in the designation of Herod as King. Mark repeatedly uses this term of Herod (vv. 14, 22, 25, 26. 27), but this is historically difficult. Herod was no king, but a tetrarch. Is Mark intending ridicule? Josephus (Ant. XVIII.vii.2) indicates that Herod was deposed by Caligula for monarchical pretensions. Mark provides no internal support for this possibility, and it may be instead that his reader will recognize the sarcasm without prompting. We cannot know for certain.

That doesn't prove he drew on Josephus of course, but it is evidence for the possibility.

2. The end of the story?

The ending of Mark seems to have teasing echoes of the Masada ending as told by Josephus. At dawn a handful of women (with reference to children) come from the 'tomb' but are disbelieved; Romans "hew" their way in, are astonished at what they see (having expected to see the living) and leave in "a dreadful silence".

I'm not saying this is evidence of Mark's use of Josephus. I don't have the skills to test it. I'm not sure it could ever be more than a faint possibility anyway.

(FWIW I've set this out point by point in my Mark's ending & Masada / Elisha post, -- to copy it here would give it more space than it's worth in this post.)

P.S. There are more sources found in Mark than Paul and the Jewish Bible. Enochian lit etc seems to have been no less important than what we select as the biblical lit. The Life of Adam and Eve is very likely the source of Jesus fasting for 40 days -- Adam fasted 40 days in the River Jordan, originally ate angel food and lived happily in the company of the beasts.

JoeWallack · 06-13-2008, 11:38 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

The next best evidence I've seen is from Goldberg's all things Josephus Page:

New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

The many parallels make it likely that Josephus was a source for "Luke". There are fewer parallels to "Mark" which makes it more of an open question for "Mark". The better related question is what type of source was Josephus for "Mark"? Presumably "Mark" would have understood Josephus as History. But what would "Mark" than do with it? Use it to supply Historical information or use it to supply Fictional information. If "Mark" is presenting his Jesus' history in the Jewish Bible than why can't he present his Jesus' narrative in Josephus?

Goldberg points out the following key parallel between Josephus and "Mark":

Quote:

Render Unto Caesar

Mark 12:13-17 (Matt. 22:15-22, Lk 20:19-26)
Then they sent to him some Pharisees and some Herodians to trap him in what he said. And they came and said to him, "Teacher, we know that you are sincere, and show deference to no one; for you do not regard people with partiality, but teach the way of God in accordance with truth. Is it lawful to pay taxes to the emperor, or not? Should we pay them, or should we not?" But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, "Why are you putting me to the test? Bring me a denarius and let me see it." And they brought one. Then he said to them, "Whose head is this, and whose title?" They answered, "The emperor's." Jesus said to them, "Give to the emperor the things that are the emperor's, and to God the things that are God's." And they were utterly amazed at him.

War 2.8.1 118 (Antiquities 18.1.1 3)
Under his administration a certain Galilean named Judas prevailed with his countrymen to revolt; and said they were cowards if they would endure to pay a tax to the Romans and submit to mortal men as their lords. This man was a teacher of a peculiar sect of his own that was not at all like the others..
For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews...

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.
In his answer, Jesus clearly states he is not a member of the Fourth Philosophy. Instead, he graphically advocates the separation of church and state. This answer clearly was not what his questioners expected. It is possible they did not believe him, and the authorities continued to regard him as a revolutionary until he was swept up during the arrests of rebels by Pilate.
For more details on the Fourth Philosophy, see The Causes of the War with Rome.

JW:
I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between Josephus' Judas the Galilean's interest in taxes and "Mark's" Jesus' interest in taxes.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

Clivedurdle · 06-13-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

CAESAR'S MESSIAH ; A SUMMARY OF FINDINGS

Our understanding of Jewish and Christian history has changed dramatically with the publication of Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill (Ulysses Press), which had previously been privately published under the title The Roman Origins of Christianity. According to Atwill, the Gospels are not accounts of the ministry of a historical Jewish Jesus compiled by his followers sixty years after his death. They are texts deliberately created to trick Messianic Jews into worshipping the Roman Emperor 'in disguise'. The essence of Atwill's discovery is that the majority of the key events in the life of Jesus are in fact satirical: each is an elegant literary play on a military battle in which the Jewish armies had been defeated by the Romans. This is an extraordinary claim-but supported by all the necessary evidence.

http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html

Quote:

As for the episode of the Gadarene swine-in which demons leave a Gadara demoniac at Jesus' bidding and then enter into a herd of 2,000 swine, which rush wildly into the lake and drown-Josephus recounts the Roman campaign in which Vespasian marched against Gadara. In the same way that the demons were concentrated in one demoniac, Josephus describes the faults of all the rebels being concentrated in the one head of the rebel leader John. Then, rushing about "like the wildest of wild beasts," the 2000 rebels rushed over the cliff and drowned.

In some of my Bibles, there are maps of where Jesus went. Has anyone compared them with travels of Emperors?

spamandham · 06-13-2008, 02:10 PM

Has a textual analysis been done to compare this section of Josephus with Mark for identical expressions?

neilgodfrey · 06-13-2008, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

My above note about The designation of Herod as King does not count?

Jerry Camery-Hoggatt, Irony in Mark's Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk), p.145:

Quote:

There are three ways in which this story may reflect the movements of irony. The first is in the designation of Herod as King. Mark repeatedly uses this term of Herod (vv. 14, 22, 25, 26. 27), but this is historically difficult. Herod was no king, but a tetrarch. Is Mark intending ridicule? Josephus (Ant. XVIII.vii.2) indicates that Herod was deposed by Caligula for monarchical pretensions. Mark provides no internal support for this possibility, and it may be instead that his reader will recognize the sarcasm without prompting. We cannot know for certain.

That doesn't prove he drew on Josephus of course, but it is evidence for the possibility.

JoeWallack · 06-14-2008, 07:28 AM

Only Music Video Approved By The Palestinians

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilgodfrey

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

My above note about The designation of Herod as King does not count?

Jerry Camery-Hoggatt, Irony in Mark's Gospel (or via: amazon.co.uk), p.145:

Quote:

There are three ways in which this story may reflect the movements of irony. The first is in the designation of Herod as King. Mark repeatedly uses this term of Herod (vv. 14, 22, 25, 26. 27), but this is historically difficult. Herod was no king, but a tetrarch. Is Mark intending ridicule? Josephus (Ant. XVIII.vii.2) indicates that Herod was deposed by Caligula for monarchical pretensions. Mark provides no internal support for this possibility, and it may be instead that his reader will recognize the sarcasm without prompting. We cannot know for certain.

That doesn't prove he drew on Josephus of course, but it is evidence for the possibility.

JW:
Ahh, Neal. You know the policy of the State of Israel, "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend."

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_6

Quote:

6:14 And king Herod heard [thereof]; for his name had become known: and he said, John the Baptizer is risen from the dead, and therefore do these powers work in him.

6:15 But others said, It is Elijah. And others said, [It is] a prophet, [even] as one of the prophets.

6:16 But Herod, when he heard [thereof], said, John, whom I beheaded, he is risen.

6:17 For Herod himself had sent forth and laid hold upon John, and bound him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip`s wife; for he had married her.

6:18 For John said unto Herod, It is not lawful for thee to have thy brother`s wife.

6:19 And Herodias set herself against him, and desired to kill him; and she could not;

6:20 for Herod feared John, knowing that he was a righteous and holy man, and kept him safe. And when he heard him, he was much perplexed; and he heard him gladly.

6:21 And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, and the high captains, and the chief men of Galilee;

6:22 and when the daughter of Herodias herself came in and danced, she pleased Herod and them that sat at meat with him; and the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.

6:23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.

6:24 And she went out, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptizer.

6:25 And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou forthwith give me on a platter the head of John the Baptist.

6:26 And the king was exceeding sorry; but for the sake of his oaths, and of them that sat at meat, he would not reject her.

6:27 And straightway the king sent forth a soldier of his guard, and commanded to bring his head: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,

6:28 and brought his head on a platter, and gave it to the damsel; and the damsel gave it to her mother.

JW:
"Mark's" Literary emphasis here is the Ironic Contrast of the King succumbing to a confrontation with a little girl. Herod has JB killed even though he knows he is Innocent just as Pilate does with Jesus. Herod's succumbing is paralleled by Peter's likewise succumbing to confrontation with a little servant girl. In contrasts Jesus is succeeding against the Roman army, the most powerful force known to "Mark" and his Readers. Therefore, "Mark" very much wants the Literary effect of "King" and wants his Readers to think of Herod as "King".

Of course what you wrote above is evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a source, it's just not very good evidence because:

1) It lacks Scope by itself. It's just a single word. It is part of a larger story in Josephus though that "Mark" clearly is familiar with.

2) "Mark's" related Literary Irony needs "King".

3) Since it's a single, straight-forward word and important title that "Mark" gets wrong it's also evidence that "Mark" was not familiar with related Josephus.

In the battle over "Oral Tradition" Christians and Christian Familiars have no problem with "Mark" using the Jewish Bible as Jesus' history and Josephus as Jesus' setting. The important question is How is "Mark" using these? As History or Fiction?

Since we can be certain that most of "Mark" is Fiction and what is left is mostly Implausible we have a starting point which is Exponentially closer to Fiction. As we add in Sources such as Imagination, Paul and the Jewish Bible that we can demonstrate were used by "Mark" as Fiction we can gradually squeeze the Historicity out of "Mark" until one is reminded of the classic Adam Family episode where they give Cousin It a haircut and when they finish there's nothing left.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

rlogan · 06-14-2008, 08:58 AM

Price has a little bit on Hebrew Bible Midrash and external literary source material here:

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

...in which the 2000 pig story is influenced by the Odyssey and a passage from Kings.

neilgodfrey · 06-14-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

Only Music Video Approved By The Palestinians

JW:
Ahh, Neal. You know the policy of the State of Israel, "The Enemy of my Enemy is my Friend."

And my second suggested offering was too far off the wall to count? It may be -- fair enough.

Quote:

2. The end of the story?

The ending of Mark seems to have teasing echoes of the Masada ending as told by Josephus. At dawn a handful of women (with reference to children) come from the 'tomb' but are disbelieved; Romans "hew" their way in, are astonished at what they see (having expected to see the living) and leave in "a dreadful silence".

I'm not saying this is evidence of Mark's use of Josephus. I don't have the skills to test it. I'm not sure it could ever be more than a faint possibility anyway.

(FWIW I've set this out point by point in my Mark's ending & Masada / Elisha post, -- to copy it here would give it more space than it's worth in this post.)

It's only a part-time half-suspicion of mine so will leave it to others to decide if it's worth including for your purposes.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

06-13-2008, 02:10 PM	#6
spamandham Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 11,525	Has a textual analysis been done to compare this section of Josephus with Mark for identical expressions?

06-14-2008, 08:58 AM	#9
rlogan Banned Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Alaska Posts: 9,159	Price has a little bit on Hebrew Bible Midrash and external literary source material here: http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm ...in which the 2000 pig story is influenced by the Odyssey and a passage from Kings.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.