jakejonesiv

Both are anti-Pauline as you suggested in http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...&postcount=505 :thumbs:

jakejonesiv

Hi Mary Helana,

I don't mean to ignore you, I just do not have an online alternative to recommend over the one on D. J. Mahr's website.

Jake

maryhelena

No problem.....

aa5874

It is imperative that we read the very first chapter of "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian because it is admitted that "Against Marcion" is something "NEW" and whatever was written before about Marcion must be ignored or not taken into account.

The author has inadvertently admitted that he will INVENT a Marcion that was previously unknown.

Tertullian's Against Marcion 1.1 "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian is FULL of Mistakes, fraud and was Fabricated AFTER Marcion was dead.

1. We have Justin Martyr who supposedly wrote when Marcion was alive and did NOT state anywhere that Marcion wrote about Jesus. Marcion Preached about Another God and Another Son--See First Apology.

2. We have Hippolytus who claimed Marcion did NOT use the Pauline letters but the Teachings of Empedocles---See Refutation of All Heresies" 7.

3. We have Ephrem the Syrian who wrote "Against Marcion" and Contradicts virtually every claim by Tertullian and Irenaeus that Marcion used the Pauline letters. Ephrem's Against Marcion hardly, if ever, mentions the Pauline letters.

4. The very Church writers called Tertullian and Irenaeus provided bogus information about the authors of the very Canon, the chronology of the books of the Canon and the time of writing of the books of the Canon that have been REJECTED by virtually ALL Scholars and even amateurs.

5. The very authors called Tertullian and Irenaeus did NOT know when Paul really lived, when he really died and what he wrote.

6. The time when Marcion lived is corroborated by Justin but Justin did NOT corroborate Paul and his letters.

7. Origen in "Against Celsus" did NOT acknowledge that Marcion mutilated the Pauline letters.

The abundance of evidence suggests that Marcion wrote NOTHING about Paul.

The Teachings of Marcion did NOT require a crucifixion or a resurrection.

Marcion Taught Another Creator and Another Son.

Justin's First Apology Ephrem's Against MarcionHippolytus' Refutation of All Heresies" Writings under the names of Both Tertullian and Irenaeus are contradicted by Apologetic sources and are known to provide highly questionable information about Marcion, the very authors of the Pauline letters and the Entire Canon.

rlogan

Good work jake

A person has to wonder about Marcion's father. Marcion would be moving in the same circles as his father, inheriting the shipping trade and associations. Whatever nascent movement was already afoot may have burst forth into full view under Marcion.

stephan huller

It can't be just a matter of assembling all the clues in Tertullian and Epiphanius and then - 'presto' - you end up with the Marcionite religion. Anyone who thinks this is wasting his or her time. There are so many problems with figuring out Marcionitism, but the most obvious one is our sources about the tradition. Questions about 'Marcionite's father' and his 'shipping business' is like gathering up all the anti-Semitic literature or stuff that has ever been written against blacks or Arabs or Chinese people hoping to figure out Jews, blacks, Arabs and Chinese people. What are you really going to get a list of the people that own 'the banks' over the years and then think you've assembled the members of the Jewish community? Same thing with the Marcionites. The clues that are available are not all there is or even close to 'all there is' to know about the Marcionites. I don't even think we know what a Marcionite is other than he/it/they weren't Catholic.

aa5874

We know what the Marcionites most likely believed.

It can be found in First Apology" attributed to Justin, "Refutation of All Heresies" attributed to Hippolytus and "Against Marcion" attributed to Ephrem the Syrian.

The writings attributed to Irenaeus and Tertullian about Marcion are historically bogus.

Irenaeus did NOT even know when Jesus was crucified or when Pilate was governor and Tertullian admitted that he was writing a "NEW" thing about Marcion when he was already dead.

jakejonesiv

Dear AA,

Tertullian could have written three or even more editions of "Against Marcion" and used the same Marcionite Apostilicon. Tertullian is not arguing that he is inventing a new Marcion, but that 1) his (Tertullian's) first version of AM was too brief, and 2) he (Tertullian) was betrayed by a brother who fraudulently made a transcription of the second edition before it was completed, introducing many errors. These errors are to be credited to the "apostate" brother, not Tertullian or Marcion. Thus, Tertullian is coming out with his new definitive version to overome the deficiencies of the previous two versions of "Against Marcion.".

Whatever in times past we have wrought in opposition to Marcion, is from the present moment no longer to be accounted of. It is a new work which we are undertaking in lieu of the old one. My original tract, as too hurriedly composed, I had subsequently superseded by a fuller treatise. This latter I lost, before it was completely published, by the fraud of a person who was then a brother, but became afterwards an apostate. He, as it happened, had transcribed a portion of it, full of mistakes, and then published it. The necessity thus arose for an amended work; and the occasion of the new edition induced me to make a considerable addition to the treatise. This present text, therefore, of my work— which is the third as superseding the second, but henceforward to be considered the first instead of the third— renders a preface necessary to this issue of the tract itself that no reader may be perplexed, if he should by chance fall in with the various forms of it which are scattered about. AM 1.1

Best Regards,
Jake Jones IV

jakejonesiv

Hi Stephan,

Sure, there are unknown or debateable details concerning Marcion. But the fact that Marcion was a dualist and an antinominist stands out in many texts.

I remember that you have a goal to Judaize Marcion despite what the texts reveal, and make Jesus the Marcionite creator.
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...99&postcount=3
http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...92&postcount=8

Jake

aa5874

Based on my research "Against Marcion" attributed Tertullian is a massive forgery written sometime AFTER the end of the 4th century or AFTER Jerome's "De Viris Illustribus".

For hundreds of years NO Apologetic writers used a single PHRASE from the supposed "Against Marcion" of Tertullian.

In fact, although the 5 books of "Against Marcion" is the Largest work attributed to Tertullian they were NOT listed by either Eusebius in Church History and NOT by Jerome.

"Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian was completely UNKNOWN for hundreds of years AFTER it was supposedly composed and had ZERO impact on the History of the Church up to and After c 392-393 CE

Examine "De Viris Illustribus" 53 on the writings of Tertullian.

Amazingly, Jerome has admitted that Tertullian wrote Against the Church--[NOT Against Marcion] and composed many SMALL works which were already LOST.

And further, Jerome listed the authors whom he claimed wrote Against Marcion.

1. Justin Martyr---De Viris Illustribus 23

2. Theophilus of Antioch---De Viris Illustribus 25

3. Philip bishop of Crete---De Viris Illustribus 30

4. Modestus---De Viris Illustribus 32

5. Rhodo---De Viris Illustribus 37

6. Hippolytus---De Viris Illustribus 61

The abundance of evidence show that "Against Marcion" attributed to Tertullian is a massive forgery.