Freethought & Rationalism Archive

BH · 05-28-2006, 12:47 PM

In the link below, does he actually take the position Jesus lived to be at least fifty?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/...#P7011_1802900

andrewcriddle · 05-28-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corsicana

In the link below, does he actually take the position Jesus lived to be at least fifty?

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/...#P7011_1802900

Reading the pasage as distinct from the chapter heading I'm not sure Irenaeus is going that far.

However, he clearly holds that Jesus lived till well into his 40's and had a preaching ministry of well over ten years.

(This position seems clearly wrong but that is another matter.)

Andrew Criddle

darstec · 05-28-2006, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Reading the pasage as distinct from the chapter heading I'm not sure Irenaeus is going that far.

However, he clearly holds that Jesus lived till well into his 40's and had a preaching ministry of well over ten years.

(This position seems clearly wrong but that is another matter.)

Andrew Criddle

If that is wrong, then what else is wrong? Should we not then toss everything he says as suspect? And if he mixes truth with fiction, how are we to tell the difference? Only when it agrees with the orthodoxy of the fourth century?

andrewcriddle · 05-28-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darstec

If that is wrong, then what else is wrong? Should we not then toss everything he says as suspect? And if he mixes truth with fiction, how are we to tell the difference? Only when it agrees with the orthodoxy of the fourth century?

Irenaeus is trying to reconstruct the History of Jesus on the basis of the Gospels and seemingly getting it wrong.

We all make mistakes and they do not usually destroy our general credibility.

Andrew Criddle

darstec · 05-28-2006, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Irenaeus is trying to reconstruct the History of Jesus on the basis of the Gospels and seemingly getting it wrong.

We all make mistakes and they do not usually destroy our general credibility.

Andrew Criddle

Again, how do we then know when he is right and when he is wrong? What should we keep and what should we throw out?

Amaleq13 · 05-28-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Irenaeus is trying to reconstruct the History of Jesus on the basis of the Gospels and seemingly getting it wrong.

Can you think of a way he might have incorrectly obtained his conclusion from the Gospels?

Roland · 05-28-2006, 04:41 PM

John 8:57 does seem to IMPLY that Jesus was considerably older than the early 30's we are used to picture him as being. Perhaps he got his idea from that.

Amaleq13 · 05-28-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roland

John 8:57 does seem to IMPLY that Jesus was considerably older than the early 30's we are used to picture him as being. Perhaps he got his idea from that.

That is certainly a possibility though Kirby's e-Catena doesn't indicate he ever quoted that passage.

IIRC, Irenaeus does appear to prefer John's Gospel but that might be the Black Butte Porter talking.

TedM · 05-28-2006, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

That is certainly a possibility though Kirby's e-Catena doesn't indicate he ever quoted that passage.

IIRC, Irenaeus does appear to prefer John's Gospel but that might be the Black Butte Porter talking.

Irenaeus quotes John 8:57 in section 6 of the link provided in the OP.

ted

TedM · 05-28-2006, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrewcriddle

Irenaeus is trying to reconstruct the History of Jesus on the basis of the Gospels and seemingly getting it wrong.

The link cites the Apostle John as the source for a belief that Jesus had a long ministry, and that such belief was confirmed independantly by other apostles. His understanding doesn't appear to me to have been derived only from the Gospels:

Quote:

..and that this extends onwards to the fortieth year, every one will admit; but from the fortieth andfiftieth year a man begins to decline towards old age, which our Lord possessed while He still fulfilled the office of a Teacher, even as the Gospel and all the elders testify; those who were conversant in Asia with John, the disciple of the Lord, [affirming] that John conveyed to them that information.155 And he remained among them up to the times of Trajan.156 Some of them, moreover, saw not only John, but the other apostles also, and heard the very same account from them, and bear testimony as to the [validity of] the statement. Whom then should we rather believe? Whether such men as these, or Ptolemaeus, who never saw the apostles, and who never even in his dreams attained to the slightest trace of an apostle?

ted

05-28-2006, 12:47 PM	#1
BH Talk Freethought Staff Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: United States Posts: 2,285	Iraeneus-Am I reading him right? In the link below, does he actually take the position Jesus lived to be at least fifty? http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/...#P7011_1802900

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05-28-2006, 04:41 PM	#7
Roland Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: California Posts: 748	John 8:57 does seem to IMPLY that Jesus was considerably older than the early 30's we are used to picture him as being. Perhaps he got his idea from that.

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