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Old 12-14-2008, 10:08 AM   #11
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He is however a member of Brookes University Oxford, which is indicated by the wiki link. He also has his own web site. And it's Beckford.
Brookes in not a part of the University of Oxford.

It's not a question about the verse, it's a question of the copying of the original documents to the KJV and so on.[/QUOTE]

Umm ... what???

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Old 12-14-2008, 10:12 AM   #12
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He is however a member of Brookes University Oxford, which is indicated by the wiki link. He also has his own web site. And it's Beckford.
Brookes in not a part of the University of Oxford.

Quote:
It's not a question about the verse, it's a question of the copying of the original documents to the KJV and so on.
Umm ... what???

Jeffrey
Oh for Gods sake fine, that's not what I said, if this thread is just going to devolve into you being a colossal pedant about stuff I never even said, I think I'll just ask a mod to close it.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:16 AM   #13
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He is however a member of Brookes University Oxford, which is indicated by the wiki link. He also has his own web site. And it's Beckford.
The wiki link says "He spent two years as the Reader in Black Theology and Popular Culture at Oxford Brookes University, and is currently teaching as an associate lecturer at Cambridge University".

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Old 12-14-2008, 10:18 AM   #14
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He is however a member of Brookes University Oxford, which is indicated by the wiki link. He also has his own web site. And it's Beckford.
The wiki link says "He spent two years as the Reader in Black Theology and Popular Culture at Oxford Brookes University, and is currently teaching as an associate lecturer at Cambridge University".

Jeffrey
When I saw it he was working at Oxford. Honestly are you really this anal? Can you try for a moment to address the topic of the thread, instead of going off into sidetracks that have no bearing on anything?

Can I ask are you a Catholic? Is this why you are deeply offended by the idea of the Church amending passages? Because frankly otherwise I can't see why you are being so crappy about this guy? I know did he totally debunk your work or something?
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:18 AM   #15
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Brookes in not a part of the University of Oxford.



Umm ... what???

Jeffrey
Oh for Gods sake fine, that's not what I said, if this thread is just going to devolve into you being a colossal pedant about stuff I never even said, I think I'll just ask a mod to close it.
Ummm, are you saying you didn't say "It's not a question about the verse, it's a question of the copying of the original documents to the KJV and so on"?

If you did, can you clairify what you mean by that statement? As it stands it's incomprehensible.

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Old 12-14-2008, 10:22 AM   #16
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Oh for Gods sake fine, that's not what I said, if this thread is just going to devolve into you being a colossal pedant about stuff I never even said, I think I'll just ask a mod to close it.
Ummm, are you saying you didn't say "It's not a question about the verse, it's a question of the copying of the original documents to the KJV and so on"?

If you did, can you clairify what you mean by that statement? As it stands it's incomprehensible.

Jeffrey
The passage was changed from the originals. I would of thought that was pretty easy to understand? Or are you going to claim there are no source texts for the NT?

Don't worry about it, it's clear I'm not going to get any answer from you but, it's all 100% authentic. I'll just ask a mod to close the thread later, if I remember to.

Seems a better idea than having to plough through more posts that say nothing.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:24 AM   #17
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The wiki link says "He spent two years as the Reader in Black Theology and Popular Culture at Oxford Brookes University, and is currently teaching as an associate lecturer at Cambridge University".

Jeffrey
When I saw it he was working at Oxford.
Saw what? What's in his bio on his web page?

Quote:
Honestly are you really this anal?
You are the one who pointed me to the link. Are you saying that that's not what the page accessed through the link says?

In any case, as is clear in message 5701069, I was asking "Chili" not you about his knowledge of Oxford. Do you always misread what others write?

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Old 12-14-2008, 10:25 AM   #18
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When I saw it he was working at Oxford.
Saw what? What's in his bio on his web page?

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Honestly are you really this anal?
You are the one who pointed me to the link. Are you saying that that's not what the page accessed through the link says?

In any case, as is clear in message 5701069, I was asking "Chili" not you about his knowloedge of Oxford. Do you always misread what others write?

Jeffrey
No I replied, I knew what you were saying it was a joke thus the smillie. Just shut up now and go away, the thread will be locked in due course, nothing to see here. Thanks.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:40 AM   #19
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I think that line belongs there but it is no surprise to me that they can't figure that out in Oxford.
Perhaps you'd be kind enough to tell us what the nature and extent of your acquaintence with Oxford and the theological faculty there is.

Did you study there? Have you sat in on the graduate and senior seminars run by the New Testament faculty? Presented papers there? Attend lectures given by any of the members of the faculty?

Have you even ever been to Oxford?

Jeffrey

Nono, I just have heard about Oxford and I think it is in England someplace. I have studied philopshy and also took some religious studies by correspondence and that was close enough to Oxford for me. I am certainly not a Brittish Analytic philosopher which to me is the antithesis of philosophy wherein no wisdom is to be found.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:45 AM   #20
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Don't worry about it, it's clear I'm not going to get any answer from you but, it's all 100% authentic.
Actually I did answer your question. But it seems to have gotten lost in the ether.

The text you quote is secure. There are a few minor variants in certain MS witnesses

Quote:
D* ε. τοις γ. των γυναικ.
αυτ. εστ. c. אBDEFGKLMSUVXZΓΔ�* al omnvid b k Cyr4,474 … Ti εστ. αυτ. c. C itpler vg (for more, see Swanson)
but, as Metzger notes by not discussing the verse in his Textual Commentary, none of them materially affect the sense of the verse.

As to it's intrepretation, here's the discussion by Davies and Allison:
Quote:

11. In our judgement, 11:11 was at one time an isolated logion. In favour of this, the verse could stand on its own (cf. Gos. Thom. 46); its addition to 11:7–9(10) par. would be natural; the ‘(And) I say to you’ is rather awkward coming so soon after ‘Indeed, I say to you’ (11:9 par.); and v. 11b creates tension with the high, unqualified praise expressed in 11:7–9 par.

There are good reasons for holding to both the unity and authenticity of the saying (cf. Schlosser 1, pp. 159–61). Since v. 11a did not originally follow upon v. 9 or v. 10 (see above), and since v. 11b could not have circulated by itself, and since vv. 11a and b are in antithetical parallelism, the two halves of our line must have come into being at the same time. As to an origin with Jesus, one has great difficulty supposing that a Christian decided to put John in his place by first proclaiming his exceeding greatness.

ἀμὴν λ�*γω ὑμῖν· οὐκ ἐγήγερται ἐν γεννητοῖς γυναικῶν μείζων Ἰωάννου τοῦ βαπτιστοῦ. Compare Lk 7:28: perhaps Matthew has changed οὐδείς ἐστιν to the more Semitic οὐκ ἐγήγερται69 and moved it to the front, displacing μείζων; he has almost certainly added ‘the Baptist’. Q otherwise has only ‘John’, and Matthew has tacked on the qualification elsewhere (in 17:13; cf. also 3:1 diff. Mk 1:4; 14:2 diff. Mk 6:14). Whether ‘amen’* is redactional or whether Luke omitted it, who could say? ‘Born of woman’ (cf. yělûd ˒ iššâ) is a Semitism.70 That it here connotes frailty or the distance between mortals and the celestials is doubtful (cf. Schlosser 1, p. 161). μείζων equals gādôl + min. For ἐγείρω of prophets see 24:11, 24; Jn 7:52 (cf. the use of qûm in Jer 29:15; Amos 2:11).

ὁ δὲ μικρότερος ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ τῶν οὐρανῶν μείζων αὐτοῦ ἐστιν. Compare Zech 12:8, Lk 7:28 has ‘kingdom of God’ (so Q). μικρότερος probably has superlative sense (cf. 13:32; Lk 9:48; BDF §§ 60, 244). ἐν … οὐρανῶν can carry local sense and go with ‘least’ (‘least in the kingdom of Heaven’; so most modern translations). But the phrase can also be causal (cf. the Hebrew bě) and be taken with ‘is greater than he’ (‘greater than he because of the kingdom’ or ‘greater than he when the kingdom comes’; cf. 6:7). The parallelism with v. 11a (‘there has not arisen ἐν those born of women’; cf. 5:19) argues for the local sense.

Although Mt 11:11 is a secondary addition, this should not blind us to how it functions in its present context. 11:7–11a heaps praise upon John the Baptist, making him indeed the greatest among those born of women—and then v. 11b turns around and makes John less than the least. In this way John’s greatness, which is no longer the subject, becomes a foil for the surpassing greatness of the kingdom.

The meaning of v. 11b is disputed. The problem concerns ‘the least in the kingdom of Heaven’. These are the three major options: (i) Jesus, with reference to his humility, to his being younger than John, or to his being John’s disciple, was speaking of himself.71 Chrysostom, while observing that some identified ‘the least’ with angels or the apostles,72 adopts this interpretation and writes of Jesus’ ‘condescension’ (οἰκονομικῶς; Hom. on Mt. 37:3; cf. Tertullian, Adv. Marc. 4:18). (ii) ‘The least in the kingdom of Heaven’ really means ‘anyone in the kingdom of Heaven (when it comes)’. On this view, ‘Jesus is not contrasting all begotten (sic) of women, with John at their head, and some other group of men, the least of which is greater than John; he is contrasting the present state of the greatest of men with the future state of the least in the coming kingdom’.73 In other words: ‘the least in the kingdom will be greater than the greatest is now’. This interpretation does not exclude John from the kingdom. (iii) ‘The least in the kingdom’ means ‘anyone now in the kingdom of Heaven’. ‘Just as Moses led the children of Israel to the borders of the Promised Land, but could not himself enter, so John led his followers up to the verge of the new order initiated by Jesus, but could not himself enter’ (Manson, Sayings, p. 70). This understanding, which excludes John from the present kingdom, is the most popular with modern commentators.74 In some of the Fathers it is combined with NT texts according to which Christians are born not of the flesh but of God, this making a contrast with John, who was only ‘born of woman’ (see e.g. Cyril of Jerusalem, Comm. on Lk. 38, citing Jn 1:12–13).

Interpretation (ii) or (iii) would seem the best for the redactional level. Matthew is not likely to have thought of Jesus as ‘the lesser’ or ‘the least’.75 As for the choice between (ii) and (iii) one can hardly be dogmatic. In the First Gospel the kingdom of Heaven is both present and future. But perhaps (ii) makes the most sense; for 11:12 (q.v.) would seem to include John, the herald of the kingdom, in the kingdom.76

As to what Jesus himself meant, (i) strikes us as out of character. Such a strong statement about his own greatness is hardly expected. And where else does Jesus call himself ‘the lesser’ or ‘the least’? We are left, again, with (ii) and (iii). The former is the choice if 11:11 was uttered before John’s death. Since Jesus included the Baptist in the kingdom, he could hardly have demoted him, were he alive, beneath ‘the least in the kingdom’. If, however, 11:11 was spoken after Herod had John killed, one could hold interpretation (iii), for the saying might very well have been about the presence of the kingdom: those who are now alive and who submit themselves to the rule of God are the greatest, that is, the most blessed and privileged, of all men (cf. 12:38–42; 13:16–17). (The place of John, as well as of all the other dead saints, would in this case just simply not be addressed.)

Davies, W. D. ; Allison, Dale C.: A Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the Gospel According to Saint Matthew (or via: amazon.co.uk). London; New York : T&T Clark International, 2004, S. 250
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