Amaleq13

Understood. My point is that I wasn't using the term in such a technical way.

Did you read my questions? They were directly addressed at this question the first time you asked it. I was trying to determine if there were specific factors one might avoid so as to reduce the likelihood that the author intentionally created any chiasms "discovered". It occurs to me, however, that the simplest way to avoid that possibility is to choose an author who is still living and just ask them.

Haran

It's all one giant chasm to me.

Peter Kirby

The Grand Canyon theory of Mark?

best,
Peter Kirby

Vorkosigan

The Gap Theory of Creation of Mark

Haran

That one is the latest fad.

Ok, I'll stop now.

CJD

Yes, it is less subjective, for precisely the reasons Kirby concurred:

I too have engineered my share of chiasms (notably, from the TNK, where one can actually find some pretty obvious chiastic structures). But every time I did, I did not suffer under the delusion that I was uncovering the author's intent. There are poetics to every piece of prose, and it should go unchallenged that these are indeed the real import when discussing any given pericope's structure. It's the basics of learning how to read.

CJD

Amaleq13

That reasoning only establishes why you consider the chiasms offered by Vorkosigan to be subjective. It does not establish that your opinion about the "real import" is less subjective nor does it establish that they were not created intentionally by the author. IOW, what objective basis do you have for your opinion about the author's "true intent"?

What objective evidence suggested to you that the chiasms, especially the "pretty obvious" ones, were not intentional constructions on the part of the author?

Peter Kirby

That might work, if the author answered and did so truthfully. It would certainly be our best idea so far. So who has done the requisite hunting for chiasms in contemporary works?

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby

Have we any evidence at all about the practices of constructing chiasms? If so, what is that evidence?

best,
Peter Kirby

Amaleq13

Nobody has mentioned such efforts in any of the previous discussions but I hope this will encourage Vorkosigan's most vocal critics as a potential way to support their suspicions.

Ancient practices? The impression I got from Celsus is that we don't have anything. He did, however, provide a link to Longinus, On the Sublime to learn more about ancient literary criticism. I've been struggling through it ever since. I haven't made much progress (or reached any discussion of chiasms) because I have to reread every paragraph about 50 times before I think I grasp it and I suspect I'm developing an aneurysm as a result. :banghead: