maryhelena

Below is a chart setting down how, in my opinion, the Jesus story, a story about an executed/crucified Jewish messiah figure, has developed. The chart is developed from a consideration of the various birth narratives regarding this executed/crucified messiah figure. That there are many conflicting birth narratives suggests that the Jesus figure is not a historical figure but a literary figure; a literary figure that is being used to reflect the historical circumstances of the Jews under Roman occupation. i.e. the Jesus story is a mythologizing of specific historical events in Jewish history. The story developed as Jewish history and prophetic interpretations of that history, moved along - and, of course, as theological and philosophical ideas also developed. The chart, using the various birth narratives, seeks to demonstrate the stages in the development of the JC story.

As can be seen from the chart - the development stages are connected to both Philo and the Josephan writer.

The chart is going to have to be cut into three.....

Pre 70 c.e.
Toledot Yeshu. Birth narrative 90 b.c. to ? Figure of Queen Helena is ambigious.	Slavonic Josephus: Birth narrative prior to 15th year of Herod the Great. 25/22 b.c.	Acts of Pilate: Eusebius: 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion ( 19 or 21 c.e.) Eusebius: Church History: CHAPTER IX. The Times of Pilate	#1 gMark. No birth narrative. JtB and the Herodias story. Herodias married to Philip. The Josephan date for the death of Philip is the 20th year of Tiberius. (32 or 34 c.e.) Verses 16:9-20 a later addition post 70 c.e.	Philo: Allegorical Interpretation, II	gJohn. No birth narrative for JC. JC not yet 50 years old. JC goes to be baptised by JtB. No mention of JtB being beheaded.	The Epistle to the Hebrews.
	The Baptizer: "And he did nothing else to them save that he plunged them into the stream of the Jordan...And when he had been brought to Archelaus and the doctors of the Law had assembled, they asked him who he was and where he had been until then." .Herod Archelaus. (4 b.c. 6 c.e.)		JtB baptizes JC - "You are my son". JC 'adopted' by God. Herodias and Antipas story could be based upon the earlier Josephan history re Archelaus divorce and his marriage to his late brother's wife, Glaphyra, wife of Alexander. (4 b.c. to 6 c.e.)
Yeshu born in the year 3671 in the days of King Jannaeus. About 90 b.c.	BIRTH NARRATIVE UPDATED. Around the 15th year of Herod the Great. (25 or 22 b.c. ) Slaughter of infants in Bethlehem. The wonder-doer would be around 30 years of age at time of John the Baptist before Archelaus 4 b.c. to 6 c.e.		The earthly man story - no value, no salvation from sins from an earthly crucifixion. gMark = A MYTHOLOGIZING OF JEWISH HISTORY STORY.	Now the heavenly man, as being born in the image of God, has no participation in any corruptible or earthlike essence. But the earthly man is made of loose material, which he calls a lump of clay	The Word became flesh. The heavenly man, the son, made flesh. Value in the crucifixion of the heavenly man. gJohn = A THEOLOGICAL AND PHILOSOPHICAL STORY	Two Jesus figures - the Jesus who was on earth - and the Jesus the High Priest like Melchizedek. The NT story makes it look like they are one and the same via resurrection - but that is not reality....Hebrews has two Jesus figues - the gospel mythological JC and the High Priest spiritual Jesus
Death, in time of Queen Helene. Identitry questionable.Yeshu .."hung on the carob-stalk, for it was a plant more than a tree, and on it he was hanged until the hour for afternoon prayer, for it is written in Scripture, "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree. They buried him outside the city. .......he was not in his grave; he had ascended to heaven as he prophesied".	Wonder-doer crucified under Pilate. Josephus dating of Pilate ambiguous, can be dated to 19 .c.e. Wonder-doer figure is around 46/47 years old in 21 c.e. "....they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us". "...servants of the previously described wonder-doer; and as they spake to the people about their teacher,—that he is living, although he is dead, and that he will free you from your servitude,—many from the folk gave ear to the above-named and took upon themselves their precept".	Wonder-doer would be about 46 years old....Not yet 50 as in gJohn. Note: Slavonic Josephus makes no mention of JtB meeting or baptizing the wonder-doer. Hence, this early crucifixion date - which would mean that the Slavonic Josephus JtB lives past the crucifixion of the wonder-doer. i.e. 32/34 c.e. dating, re Josephus, of Philip. JtB predicting the death of Philip.	Crucified under Pilate. 19 c.e. - 36 c.e. Acts of Pilate 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion story moved to later in rule of Pilate. Re the JtB and Herodias/Philip/Antipas story. JtB beheaded prior to crucifixion of JC. No crucifixion as sacrifice for sins.		JC 'not yet 50 years old' prior to crucifixion under Pilate. From a birth date in Slavonic Josephus of around 25 b.c. = JC not yet 50 years in 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion story.
	Herodias married to Philip the Tetrarch.		Herodias married to Philip the Tetrarch

Post 70 c.e. Prior to Antiquities of 94 c.e.
#2 gMark. No birth narrative. JtB and the Herodias story. Herodias married to Philip.The Josephan date for the death of Philip is the 20th year of Tiberius. (32 or 34 c.e.) Verses 16:9-20 now added re after death appearances of JC.	#1 gMatthew. JC from tribe of Judah. Virgin Birth and geneology.	#2 gMatthew. JC from tribe of Judah. Virgin Birth and geneology.
JtB baptizes JC - "You are my son". JC 'adopted' by God. Herodias and Antipas story probably based upon the earlier Josephan history re Archelaus divorce and his marriage to his late brother's wife, Glaphyra, wife of Alexander. (4 b.c. to 6 c.e.)	Herodias and Antipas story probably based upon the earlier Josephan history re Archelaus divorce and his marriage to his late brother's wife, Glaphyra, wife of Alexander. (4 b.c. - 6 c.e.)	Herodias and Antipas story probably based upon the earlier Josephan history re Archelaus divorce and his marriage to his late brother's wife, Glaphyra, wife of Alexander. (4 b.c. - 6 c.e.)
The earthly man story - no value, no salvation from sins from an earthly crucifixion. gMark = A MYTHOLOGIZING OF JEWISH HISTORY STORY.	Birth narrative early in rule of Herod the Great. Slavonic Josephus dating for birth narraive re slaughter of innocents in Bethlehem. (25 or 22 b.c.)	BIRTH NARRATIVE UPDATED. If JC a young child when Archelaus is ruling - 4 b.c. - 6 c.e., then a birth narrative near the end of the rule of Herod the Great.
Crucified under Pilate. 19 c.e. - 36 c.e. Acts of Pilate 7th year of Tiberius crucifixion story moved to later in rule of Pilate. Re the JtB and Herodias/Philip/Antipas story. JtB beheaded prior to crucifixion of JC. No crucifixion as sacrifice for sins.	Crucified under Pilate. 19 c.e. - 36 c.e.	Crucified under Pilate. 19 c.e. - 36 c.e.
Herodias married to Philip the Tetrarch	Herodias married to Philip the Tetrarch	Herodias married to Philip the Tetrarch

Post Antiquites 94 c.e.
#1. Josephus Antiquities 94 c.e.	Acts of the Apostles: Reversal of the Josephan dating for Judas the Galilean and Theudas	#1. ur-Luke - from 3:1 The 15th year of Tiberius: 29/30 c.e. The gLuke of Marcion	#2. gLuke - from 3:1. The 15th year of Tiberius. JC around 30 years old.	The Infancy Gospel of James: John the Baptist and JC are both born to be Kings of Israel - and are family related....	#3. gLuke: JC and JtB are now cousins.	The Pauline Epistles	#2. Josephus Antiquites, TF from time of Eusebius. (263 – 339 c.e.)
John the Baptizer slain by Herod Antipas prior to the War with Aretas in 36 c.e. "Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion".		The story of John the Baptist: The Antipas and Herodias story. No mention of Herodias being married to Philip. Josephus, Antiquities, 95 c.e. providing a different 'history'.	The story of John the Baptist: The Antipas and Herodias story. No mention of Herodias being married to Philip.Josephus, Antiquities providing a different 'history'. storyline.	The son of Mary: .."a great King has been born to Israel." The son of Elizabeth and Zacharias: "His son is destined to be king over Israel." Elizabeth the "kinswoman" of Mary.	The story of John the Baptist: The Antipas and Herodias story. No mention of Herodias being married to Philip.Josephus, Antiquities providing a different 'history'. storyline. John the Baptist and JC are now cousins.		John the Baptizer slain by Herod Antipas prior to the War with Aretas in 36 c.e. "Herod, who feared lest the great influence John had over the people might put it into his power and inclination to raise a rebellion".
		No birth narrative.	BIRTH NARRATIVE UPDATED. Birth date around 1 b.c. if JC around 30 years in 15th year of Tiberius.		BIRTH NARRATIVE UPDATED. Birth narrative in time of Quirinius. 6 c.e. - for both JC and John the Baptist. Slavonic Josephus JtB story updated
Crucified under Pilate. " Now there was about this time a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him;	Crucified under Pialte.	Crucified under Pilate. Crucifixion anytime from 29/30 c.e. To 36 c.e. "....but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel". (Slavonic Josephus .. "....they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us". "...)	Crucified under Pilate. If JC birth narrative in 1 b.c. JC 30 years old at crucifixion in 30 c.e.c.e. To 36 c.e. "....but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel". (Slavonic Josephus .. "....they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us". "...)		Crucified under Pilate. If JC birth narrative in 6 c.e. = crucifixion, at age 30 years, in 36 c.e.c.e. To 36 c.e. "....but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel". (Slavonic Josephus .. "....they urged him that he should enter the city and cut down the Roman soldiers and Pilate and rule over us". "...)		Crucified under Pilate: ". Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
The TF is placed after the account of the Roman standards and the acqueduct account. It is followed by the expelling of Jews from Rome, dated 19 c.e.
Philip the Tetrarch married to the daughter of Herodias, Salome.		No mention of Herodias being married to Philip.	No mention of Herodias being married to Philip.		No mention of Herodias being married to Philip.		Philip the Tetrarch married to the daughter of Herodias, Salome.
[B]

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Links to two threads related to the theme of this post:

Who is Queen Helene of the Toledot Yeshu?

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=317642

HISTORY REJECTS THE ASSUMPTION OF A HISTORICAL GOSPEL JESUS FIGURE

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=313038