Gawen

You're quite welcome.

These two questions presuppose the biblical god's existence.

One may predestine a flawed creation.


That is how I see it, supposing the myth is true. However, it is written and apologised up the wazoo that man is a sinner and not perfect. One can see the contradiction here.

Biff the unclean

Apologetics is never having to say you're sorry.

fatpie42

If they weren't taken completely literally the God proofs would never have been made. However, as with all religious stances, it depends on the believer.

One Christian who thinks the existence of God proofs are a stupid waste of time is D.Z. Phillips (recently deceased). I particularly liked his claim that God isn't all-powerful in the sense of "being able to do anything (omnipotent)" because God can't:
ride a bicycle (no legs)
eat ice cream (no stomach)
bump his head (no head)

(He claims that any argument that God could do these things comes under the same issue of whether God could do evil things. If something will, by matter of necessity, never be done, does that really still allow for it being something that 'could' be done? - Oh and the book is "The Problem of Evil and the Problem of God")

Cheerful Charlie

Most of these phrases really not found in bible or Quran et al. Omnibenevolent is actually
a new word from about this century. Mostly, such things are taken from proof texts.
The OT uses shaddai (all powerful) 42 times, (KJV almighty) A few texts are used in the NT.

Other examples:

Omnipotence proof texts

OLD TESTAMENT

TORAH

Genesis 18:14
Is anything too hard for the LORD?
I will return to you at the appointed time next
year and Sarah will have a son.

OTHER

Job 42:2
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

Psalm 62:11
God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this;
that power belongeth unto God.

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in heaven; He does what He
pleases.

PROOF TEXTS - OMNISCIENCE

"Lord, thou knowest all things.
(John 21:17)
"God is greater than our heart, and
knoweth all things" (1 John 3:20)

"All things are naked and open unto his eyes"
(Hebrews 4:13)? Did not the Lord tell Jeremiah
"Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee"
(Jeremiah. 1:5)?

Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may
know that ye are gods" (Is. 41:23).

He declares the end from the beginning and from
ancient times the things that are not
yet done" (Isaiah 46:10).[9]

O Lord, you have searched me and you know me, You
know when I sit and when I rise. You discern my
going out and my lying down; you are familiar with
all my ways (Ps. 139:1-2a & 3).

You can do same for Vedas, Mahbarata, Quran, and other books.

Within reason is a big sort of.

For example some of these things tend to develop problems.

God is all powerful, that was in Greek, pantokrator Lord of all,
which was translated into Latin, omnipotense, all powerful.

But, that can cause problems, can god sin? No because he is
summum bonum (supreme good). But if he cannot sin, there is
one thing he cannot do, sin, so he does not have omnipotence,
ability to do all.

Theologians puzzled over these thinsg long and hard.
and started making special cases out of some of this stuff.

Check out the online St. Thomas Aquinas Summa Theologica
for discussions of these things.

Much of this was developed starting early on by peole like Tertullian and
reached its heighths with St Augustine.

Anslem, about 1000 CE carried things to a new heighth.
In his Proslogian he staed that is there are things that are good, some
things are more good than others. The most good thing must be god.
He applies this to all attributes one can apply to god.

So he is getting around revelationand proof text and maximizing
god metaphysicsally speaking.

God is the greatest thing that can be imagined.

Here god really becomes omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent.

And here the problems of contradictions had to be tackled in earnest.
Again, Aquinas is a good place to look.

And there are other problems, free will (Catholics)
vs Predestination (Calvin, Luther) War of proof texts.

Way back in the past, Origen used allegorization to explain away
problems, we still get some of that.
If god is all powerful, why did he try to kill Moses in Exodus 4, and fail?

At any rate, all of this is actually, long, complex and one could fill a large
set of books doing justice to all the ins and outs of this.

This stuff is still argued. and still people try to find ways around puzzles this stuff creates.

Can god create a married bachelor? If not, is he no longer omnipotent?
Again, check out Aquinas for how these things are handled.

One interesting thing to do is pick something, say omnipotence, and google for proof
texts. Sometimes claims rest on rather slim words and translations.

Check out the online Catholic New Advent site and Aquinas Summa Theologica,
omnipotence, omniscience, goodness of god, and so on.

You really have to mess with this a bit to see how its something that evolved over
1200 years and still is evolving actually. There are no really short and correct answers here.

Anselm:
God is the most pwerful thing that can be imagined.
The most poweul thing imaginable must have existance or it is not
the most poweful thing imaginable.
Thus god, the greatest thing imaginable must exist.

God is the greatest thing imaginable
A god that is not limited by logic is greater than
a god that is limited by logic.
God is thus not limited by logic.
A god that is not limited by logic can eliminate all evil as
he has no limits to prevent him doing that.
A god with no limits by logic can evist or exil can exist but a god
with no limits by logic and evil togther both cannot exist.

Evil exists.
God does not.
Or is not the greatest thing imaginable, logic is.

You can have some fun times with all of this.


Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

God is the greatest thing imaginable.
A god that is not limited by logic is greater than one that is limted by logic.
Thus a god not limited by logic can make a rock he cannot lift and simultaneously
lift it as logic has no meaning for god and he is essentially omnipotent in the greatest
sense, without any limits.

But if so, god has no excuse for not eliminating all evil.
A god not limited by evil and evil cannot coexist.
Exil exists so god does not.

Therefore logic must limit god and thus god is not omnipotent, he has limits.

What is logic and where does it come from?
Is it one thing? Many?

Therefore god is not the greatest thing imaginable.


Exodus 15
11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful
in praises, doing wonders?

Exodus 18
11 Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods:
for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was
above them.

Deuteronomy 10
17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and
Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a
terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor
taketh reward:

Psalm 86
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord;
neither are there any works like unto thy works.


Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

Matthew 5:48
Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/100203.htm

(Aquinas's 4 way to prove god exists)

The fourth way is taken from the gradation to be found in things. Among beings there are some more and some less good, true, noble and the like. But "more" and "less" are predicated of different things, according as they resemble in their different ways something which is the maximum, as a thing is said to be hotter according as it more nearly resembles that which is hottest; so that there is something which is truest, something best, something noblest and, consequently, something which is uttermost being; for those things that are greatest in truth are greatest in being, as it is written in Metaph. ii. Now the maximum in any genus is the cause of all in that genus; as fire, which is the maximum heat, is the cause of all hot things. Therefore there must also be something which is to all beings the cause of their being, goodness, and every other perfection; and this we call God.


This line of reasoning was taken from Anselm's Proslgion.

If things are good, there must be something supremely good, god.
God is perfect, he has all such perfections.

Note this does not rely on revelation or proof texts

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

A. INFINITY OF GOD

When we say that God is infinite, we mean that He is unlimited in every kind of perfection or that every conceivable perfection belongs to Him in the highest conceivable way.
...

And so on.

Cheerful Charl;ie

Cheerful Charlie

Not by those exact words, but there are many proof texts for such things.

Perfection by name is used once, in Matthew 5:48.
Omnipotent (pantokrater in Greek) is used once in revelations.

Examples....

Omnipotence proof texts

OLD TESTAMENT

TORAH

Genesis 18:14
Is anything too hard for the LORD?
I will return to you at the appointed time next
year and Sarah will have a son.

OTHER

Job 42:2
I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.

Psalm 62:11
God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this;
that power belongeth unto God.

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in heaven; He does what He
pleases.

PROPHETS

Isiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that
the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of
the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is
weary? there is no searching of his
understanding.

Oddly enough, there does not seem to be a single site online I know of that
gets all of these things down on one site, exhaustively.

Sometimes these things get defined by looking at numerous
text proofs and considering them togethe en masse. I have had to sort of
put togther my own lists as I have needed them in the past.

Then god is also given names, shaddai, all powerful, used 42 times in the OT.
Almighty in the KJV. No definitions as such, but titles.

Omniscience, omnibenevolence, mercy, justice, immutibility et al
are derived from proof texts. Same with the Quran.


Cheerful Charlie

Cheerful Charlie

The general line is, we were created perfect, but original sin detracts from our perfection.

Catholics who support free will have some fancy stepping here to do,
while Cavinists accept original sin as reason some men are elect and others not, some have more original sin that others.

Google: Calvin, 5 points, TULIP for one explanation.

Google: Council ot Trent for the official dogmatic anti-Calvinist take on all of this.

My take on it is this, supposedly all evil comes from our corruption, caused by original sin.

But if god is good, and hates evil, he would have destroyed original sin on day one rather than wait 4000 years.

Catholics have used the free will defence.

Epicurus :
God is al powerful and all good.
Evil exists.
god then is either not all good or not all
powerful or neither.

Augustine: God gave us free will and values free will more
than eliminating evil.
Evil comes from us, not god, because we make mistakes.
(Original sin taints us)

(Still popular today, google Alvin Plantinga, free will defense.)

God has free will and god has a good nature incapable of evil.

If god really hated evil he would give us a god-like free will and a
god-like good nature. If he can and does not he is evil because all evil
comes from that refusal to act.

Evil exists, that good god does not.

And finally, Genesis 3;22 has god throwing us out of Eden, not because
we are tainted by sin, but to prevent us from eating of the tree of life and
becoming immortal and rival gods. There is nothing like original sin in
Genesis 2-3.

Yes, all of this makes my head hurt too.

Cheerful Charlie