Tom Sawyer

I have a question for the theists here, or anyone else who has an answer.

I've heard it said many times that suffering and death and the like entered the world after Adam and Eve rebelled against God by eating the apple, meaning that there was no death or suffering before this. However, I was just looking at the Book of Genesis and one line struck me:

This implies that Adam and Eve were not, in fact, going to live forever before eating the apple and therefore death was already in the world since they were mortal.

Am I misreading this bit and if so, what was God on about? If not, what is meant by death entering the world because of Adam and Eve's rebellion?

As a side note, why would God be worried about people living forever in the first place?

Nectaris

Minor nitpick, did you mean Gen 3:22?

I'm not a theist, but I'll give it a shot. Maybe there was an instantaneous trade off. A&E were originally immortal, but lacking in knowledge. Once they ate the fruit of knowledge the lost their immortality, however they gained knowledge that they could eat from the tree of life to regain the immortality that they lost when they ate from the tree of knowledge. If A&E managed to eat from both trees they would actually usurp Yahweh.

I think that would tie in thematically to some liberal readings that knowledge = loss of innocence. Although how one figures innoence = immortality is beyond me. Perhaps the knowledge that A&E obtained included knowledge that they both eventually would die. Perhaps they were indeed not immortal to begin with, but were simply ignorant of the fact that they might eventually die. So they thought they were immortal, but they just didn't know they were wrong.

Dave

Tom Sawyer

Yes I did

That's adding bits to the story that just plain aren't there. You may as well say that Death beat Hercules in a wrestling match to get into the world because Adam threw away the apple core and hit Hercules in the head, distracting him. Both that and your explanation are not parts of the Book of Genesis at all.

That still doesn't "bring death into the world" though. This phrase has been used to explain why some animals eat other animals, why we get old and die, etc - it was all because of the Fall. But if we weren't immortal before the Fall, as God said, then it really didn't change anything for us and the phrase is irrelevant.

Magus55

Well, the result of their rebellion was physical death, but also spiritual death ( which is the more important of the two). Now, its not necessarily a given that Adam and Eve were created immortal, in the sense that nothing can kill them. During creation, before the Fall, there was nothing that could actually kill them, so why would you need to make them invulnerable as well. They wouldn't have aged, no disease, no sickness, no violence or things to kill them, so immortality is a bit redundant at creation. Now there is also that assumption, that had Adam and Eve obeyed God, they would have remained in the Garden and been able to eat any tree but the forbidden one, which would include the Tree of Life. So maybe they were created mortal in expectation that had they not fallen, they would have become immortal.

Now, onto the fall. Adam and Even disobey God, and sin and death (both physical and spiritual enter the world). Animals now eat each other, and its a dog eat dog world. Adam and Eve are now corrupted, and are now capable of dying, aging, getting sick etc. But worst of all, is they are now cursed with the fate of spiritual death for sinning. They are now condemned.

Had God not cast them out of the Garden and blocked the Tree of Life, Adam and Eve would have eaten from it. Whats worse then being condemned and mortal? Being condemned and immortal. If Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Life, they would have remained in a permanent state of corruption, incapable of dying, but incapable of being restored either.

Because He didn't want them to remain immortaly corrupt.

winstonjen

The verse you posted seemed to indicate that god was only afraid after they obtained knowledge. So it seems to me that the writers of the bible wanted their followers to be sheep without thinking for themselves.

beastmaster

This notion comes from Paul in Romans 5:12. As you (apparently) have already discovered, Paul's interpretation has scant to nil support in the original Genesis narrative.

DISSIDENT AGGRESSOR

Tom Sawyer

What if they were climbing an apple tree and fell and broke their neck? Also, what do you mean that they were created mortal but didn't age? If God wanted to make them immortal, why didn't he just do so rather than make them wander around and happen to eat a fruit that would give it to them? There are just a few holes here that I'm not getting.

Isn't being alive and condemned better than spending eternity burning in Hell? And why couldn't God restore them if they were incapable of dying? If I were allknowing and allpowerful, I don't think I'd have limitations like that.

Additionally, if eating the apple gave them the knowledge of right and wrong, then why was it wrong for them to disobey God before they knew it was wrong? What reason was there for them to not listen to the snake other than because it was wrong to disobey God? If they didn't know that it was wrong to disobey God, due solely to God not giving them a sense of right and wrong, then how is it just to punish them for disobeying Him? What is the justification for listening to God instead of the snake without the concepts of right and wrong entering into the equation?

Godless Wonder

What I want to know is this: When A&E were kicked out of the garden, God put a Cherubim (whatever that is) with some sort of spinning sword to make sure they can't get back in. If it weren't for this cherubim feller, they could go right back in, it seems.

Now, the tree of life, which grants eaters of its fruit immortality, should it self be immortal, should it not? Or else God could have just plucked the tree of life from the garden instead of kicking A&E out.

So, granting the above, the only thing keeping A&E out of the garden is this cherubim feller with the flaming, spinning sword.

Now, I also seem to recall some story in which God was defeated by an army which happened to have some iron chariots at it's disposal.

So, it occurs to me, that we can get us some tanks (iron chariots, of a sort, only much better) and go run this dude with the flaming spinning sword over, and go find this immortal tree of life.

And the we will be like gods.

Sound like a plan?


Only one problem with this master plan. It's all a freakin' fairy taie, ya knuckleheads.

judge

The traditional christian view as far as I have been able to tell, is that it was only Adam and Eve who were not going to die. Animals and plants were always intended to die,

Augustine described Adams state with the Latin words
non imposse mori sed posse non mori which means it was not impossible for him to die but it was possible not to die.

We are going to die, we don't know when perhaps but we know we will die.

An immortal creature cannot die.

Adam was half way in between. Capable of becoming mortal (meaning definitely going to die) or immortal (meaning unable to die).
He could have continued to live without needing to die but still with the possibility of dying.

This essay, the original immortals may help.