Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 07-08-2008, 03:20 PM

Quote:

The Greeks used both the word Messias (a transliteration) and Christos (a translation) for the Hebrew Mashiach (Anointed). The word Christos was far more acceptable to the pagans who were worshiping Chreston and Chrestos.
According to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, the word Christos was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning "good." According to a French theological dictionary, it is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, and Christiani and Chrestiani were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries A.D. The word Christianos is a Latinism, being contributed neither by the Jews nor by the Christians themselves. The word was introduced from one of three origins: the Roman police, the Roman populace, or an unspecified pagan origin. Its infrequent use in the New Testament suggests a pagan origin.
According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. According to Christianity and Mythology, Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos. In the Synagogue of the Marcionites on Mount Hermon, built in the third century A.D., the Messiah's title is spelled Chrestos. According to Tertullian and Lactantius, the common people usually called Christ Chrestos.

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptu...e/heathen9.htm

Cesc · 07-09-2008, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Greek name "Chrestos" means "the good" and was a common name for slaves.

I see, thx for clearing that up for me. You may disregard all my uses of Chrestos and put in its place Christos!

Well, Mithras of Rome was wearing the so-called "liberty cap" or "Phrygian cap", called "Liberia" in the Mithraic rituals, so called because it was once used by freed slaves (Fulcanelli, p.72). I was just seeing Clivedurdle's citation that "According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican." Makes sense then, I guess.

Roger Pearse · 07-11-2008, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

["According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican."

Is there a reference for this? I'd hate to see a legend start.

gurugeorge · 07-11-2008, 12:39 AM

Great stuff from Cesc and Stonewall here. Breath of fresh air. Potentially verging towards hokum but narrowly avoiding it by cleaving to reason. Keep it up guys!

But more about Christs please!

One of my great regrets in life is that ten years ago I lost in a basement flood a bunch of books, one of which was a late 1800s monograph I'd picked up in an antique bookstore by a Victorian amateur scholar who's name I can't even remember now, who'd scoured museums all over Europe and found a bunch of pre-Christian and contemporary-to-Christian Greek and Roman grave inscriptions with "Christos", and tied them to the Mystery cults. Darn that monograph was interesting, shame I can't remember much about it at all.

Clivedurdle · 07-11-2008, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

["According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican."

Is there a reference for this? I'd hate to see a legend start.

Kindly take it up with this Cambridge University site I referenced on the internet.

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptu...e/heathen9.htm

Quote:

Christ [Home] [Contacts] [Comparisons] Come Out of Her, My People. Pages 68-71. The Greeks used both the word Messias (a transliteration) and Christos (a translation) for the Hebrew Mashiach (Anointed). The word Christos was far more acceptable to the pagans who were worshiping Chreston and Chrestos.
According to The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, the word Christos was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning "good." According to a French theological dictionary, it is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, and Christiani and Chrestiani were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries A.D. The word Christianos is a Latinism, being contributed neither by the Jews nor by the Christians themselves. The word was introduced from one of three origins: the Roman police, the Roman populace, or an unspecified pagan origin. Its infrequent use in the New Testament suggests a pagan origin.
According to Realencyclopaedie, the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. According to Christianity and Mythology, Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos. In the Synagogue of the Marcionites on Mount Hermon, built in the third century A.D., the Messiah's title is spelled Chrestos. According to Tertullian and Lactantius, the common people usually called Christ Chrestos.

Matthew 16: 16
AIV Messiah LB Christ, Messiah REB Messiah ANT Messiah NAB Messiah SISR Messiah BNT Messiah. NEB Messiah SNB Messiah CJB Mashiach NLT Messiah SSBE Messiah CNT God's anointed NNT Messiah SV Anointed GW Messiah NRS Messiah TEV Messiah HBME Messiah ONT Messiah TM Christ, Messiah KLNT Messias Versions using Christ: AAT, AB, CENT, CEV, CLNT, CTNT, DHB, DRB, EBR, EDW, EVD, HBRV, IB, IV, JWNT, KJV, KTC, LBP, MCT, MNT, MRB, MSNT, NAS, NBV, NCV, NET, NIV, NJB, NKJ, NLV, NSNT, NWT, PRS, RNT, RSV, SARV, SGAT, TCNT, TJB, WAS, WET, WNT, WTNT, YLR.

and I would definitely widen the search for all variations of Christ with the term Chronos.

Roger Pearse · 07-11-2008, 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Is there a reference for this? I'd hate to see a legend start.

Kindly take it up with this Cambridge University site I referenced on the internet.

http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptu...e/heathen9.htm

Not a Cambridge University site, but a page in a mirror of another now defunct site held locally on one of their servers.

This should be treated as suspicious until verified.

Clivedurdle · 07-11-2008, 04:45 AM

Quote:

Our research into this matter has produced some revealing similarities between Christos and certain pagan names and titles. F.D. Gearly, writing in The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 1, pp. 571-572, says, "the word Christos ... was easily confused with the common Greek proper name Chrestos, meaning 'good'." He also quotes a French theological dictionary which says, "It is absolutely beyond doubt that Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, were used indifferently by the profane and Christian authors of the first two centuries of our era." he continues, "in Greek, 'e' and 'i' were similarly pronounced and often confused, the original spelling of the word should be determined only if we could fix its provenance (origin). ... The problem is further complicated by the fact that the word Christianos is a Latinism ... and was contributed neither by Jews nor by the Christians themselves." He quotes various scholars to support his proposition that the word Christianos was introduced from one of three origins: (a) The Roman police (b) The Roman populace (c) Unspecified pagan provenance (origin)." he then proceeds, "The three occurences of 'Christian' in the NT suggest that the term was at this time primarily used as a pagan designation. Its infrequent use in the NT indicates not so much lateness of origin as pagan provenance (origin)."
This almost sensational admission as to the confusion and uncertainty between Christos and Chrestos, Christus and Chrestus, Christiani and Chrestiani, is well documented and shared and published by other scholars too,201 as well as by the Early Fathers: Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Lanctantius and others.201 This confusion and uncertainty can only encourage and encourage us to return to the only Source of Truth, the Word, the Scriptures, before it was translated into the languages of the pagans. Only then can we find peace in the truth of Yahushúa being the Anointed, the One promised to Israel.
Who was this Chrestos or Chreston with which Christos became confused with? We have already seen that Chrestos was a common Greek proper name, meaning "good". further, we see in Pauly-Wissowa, Realencyclopaedie, under "Chrestos", that the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. We also read in J.M. Robertson, Christianity and Mythology, p. 331, that Osiris, the Sun-deity of Egypt, was reverenced as Chrestos. We also read of the heretic Gnostics who used the name Chreistos.202 The confusion, and syncretism, is further evidenced by the oldest Christian building known, the Synagogue of the Marcionites on Mt. Hermon, built in the 3rd century, where the Messiah's title or appellation is spelt Chrestos.203 Justin Martyr (about 150 C.E.) said that Christians were Chrestoi or "good". Tertullian and Lactantius inform us that "the common people usually called Christ Chrestos". Clement of Alexandria, in the same age, said, "all who believe in Christ are called Chrestoi, that is 'good men.'"203
The word Christos could even have been more acceptable to the Krishna-worshippers, because the name of Krishnawas pronounced, and still is to the present day, as Krista, in many parts of India.204Thus, we can readily see that the word Christos was easier to convert the pagans with than the word "Messiah", especially because of the anti-Judaism that prevailed among the pagans. The syncretism between Christos and Chrestos (the Sun-deity Orsiris), is further elucidated by the fact of emperor Hadrian's report, who wrote, "There are there (in Egypt) Christians who worship Serapis; and devoted to Serapis, are those who call themselves 'Bishops of Christ'."198 Serapis was another Sun-deity who superseded Osiris in Alexandria. Once again, we must not falter nor stumble over this confusion among the Gentiles. Rather, we must seek the truth, primarily from the faithfully preserved Old testament Scriptures - see 2 Tim. 3:16, John 17:17, Ps. 119:105, Isa 40:8. We must worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth, as well as His Son, Yahushúa the Messiah, Who is sitting at His right hand. We do accept every word in the New Testament, but we do desire to return to the original Scriptures of the New Testament, as far back as we possibly can. As previously mentioned, the Greeks changed Elijah into Helias in the Greek New Testament, and the Helios-worshippers must have been overjoyed because of their Sun-deity being assimilated to the Elijah of the Scriptures. To avoid the confusion between Helias and Helios, we should abide by the Hebrew "Elijah". Likewise, to avoid confusion between Christos and Chrestos, we should abide by the word Anointed - remembering that Osiris the Sun-deity, amongst others, was called Chrestos. Mithras too, was possibly called Chrestos (see above).

http://www.iahushua.com/ST-RP/christ.htm

Roger Pearse · 07-11-2008, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

... "The three occurences of 'Christian' in the NT suggest that the term was at this time primarily used as a pagan designation. Its infrequent use in the NT indicates not so much lateness of origin as pagan provenance (origin)." This almost sensational admission ...

Who was this Chrestos or Chreston with which Christos became confused with? We have already seen that Chrestos was a common Greek proper name, meaning "good".

further, we see in Pauly-Wissowa, Realencyclopaedie, under "Chrestos", that the inscription Chrestos is to be seen on a Mithras relief in the Vatican. We also read in J.M. Robertson...
(junk snipped)

Are you endorsing this remarkable collection of anti-factual rubbish?

Perhaps someone with access to the RealEncyclopedie could look at any Chrestos entry and see if it contains anythingon the matter.

thentian · 07-11-2008, 05:43 AM

There is a Cassius Chrestos mentioned in a book "Urban Life and Local Politics in Roman Bithynia".

I haven't read it and the danish site where it looks like you can buy the book is down atm, though. It looks like he was a contemporary of Dion Chrysostomos 40-120 AD

Cheers!

Clivedurdle · 07-11-2008, 06:09 AM

Quote:

CLASSICAL STUDIES

Encyclopedias

- PAULY-WISSOWA

Pauly-Wissowa is the major, scholarly encyclopedia for Classical Studies. Following are citations for the 1893 edition, the Supplement volumes, subsequent editions, a new English edition that is currently being published and three important indexes, including an electronic index, to the articles, the Nachtrage and the supplementary volumes.
Pauly-Wissowa is a detailed reference work covering all aspects of classical studies. These articles, most of them substantial, are arranged alphabetically. Many volumes of the main set contain Nachtrage, which provide corrections and revisions. The Supplement volumes include new articles and revisions to articles published in the original set. Use the separately published indexes to locate articles, along with the additional information found in the Nachtrage and Supplements. This work is commonly referred to as Pauly-Wissowa and is cited as RE.
New Pauly Online
The online version contains the entire text of Metzler's Der neue Pauly and Brill's New Pauly.
Pauly, A. and G. Wissowa. Paulys Real-Encyclopadie der classischen Altertumswissenschaft
1894-1972. Neue Bearbeitung. ser.1:v.1-v.47;ser.2:v.1-v.19
CLASS Reference DE5 .P33 1894

http://www.libraries.uc.edu/research...y_wissowa.html

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07-11-2008, 12:39 AM	#4
gurugeorge Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,210	Great stuff from Cesc and Stonewall here. Breath of fresh air. Potentially verging towards hokum but narrowly avoiding it by cleaving to reason. Keep it up guys! But more about Christs please! One of my great regrets in life is that ten years ago I lost in a basement flood a bunch of books, one of which was a late 1800s monograph I'd picked up in an antique bookstore by a Victorian amateur scholar who's name I can't even remember now, who'd scoured museums all over Europe and found a bunch of pre-Christian and contemporary-to-Christian Greek and Roman grave inscriptions with "Christos", and tied them to the Mystery cults. Darn that monograph was interesting, shame I can't remember much about it at all.

07-11-2008, 05:43 AM	#9
thentian Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 694	There is a Cassius Chrestos mentioned in a book "Urban Life and Local Politics in Roman Bithynia". I haven't read it and the danish site where it looks like you can buy the book is down atm, though. It looks like he was a contemporary of Dion Chrysostomos 40-120 AD Cheers!

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