stephan huller

What is the matter with people? Open your eyes. Read a book. You people speak about 'the text' as if it existed in some universe independent of exegesis. As old as we have allusions to the gospel narrative we have people upholding Origen's understanding that Jesus was crucified and died in appearance only. Where do you get the leap of logic that Origen's POV is 'late'? Because Origen was only taught by Clement c. 189 CE? Really? So the understanding that Jesus died in appearance is only dated to Origen. That's silly. As old as Ignatius we have references to Origen's tradition. It's also in Clement of Alexandria. It's the other position - that Jesus was a historical man - which only dates from the middle of the second century, maybe the rule of Antoninus Pius.

outhouse

some people think dogma didnt change or evolve with time.

some people ignore what people closer to te actual events thought


because he was far removed from the actual events. the mythology changed from what was first written

outhouse

are worthless in understanding a historical jesus, or a mythical one.


he does however give us great insight to the movement in the time he lived, but not before.

Chili

Yes but that is long after baptism and not just one day.

Where Stephan is wrong is that Baptism is an initiation event prior to any insight were made. It contains no more than a promise and passover is to spare the initiate from the Herodian massacre wherein the child of religion is killed to remove the persuasibility insight the promise, and so is why passover is a midwinter and not an Easter event.

Crucifixion is when par-ousia is celebrated and for this the 'senior' must die to unite the 12 ousia's that the sophomore had made in a life of his own.

So it is a matter of becoming rather than creating and recognize the eidos of the final image as the imago of man. And oh yes, for this the persona must die to bring the maskerade to an end.

sotto voce

Origen was there.

stephan huller

Traditions can reasonably be expected to last a century or so

sotto voce

A British Prime Minister famously said that a week is a long time in politics. So what is a century in religion?

Sheshbazzar

We can't say with any certainty that he probably died on a cross.

That story seems to have came about quite late in the development of the Jesus mythos.

And there have been alternate views and endings reported for as long as there has been Christianity.
Some early Christian traditions claimed that Jesus was never even on a cross.
I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find that some still do. Not everyone buys catholicism.

Chili

The cross is a universal image to annihilate the human hero of man, also known as the mask or persona that he wears, behind or beneath which the imago is conceiled.*

In "Tay John" the Yellowheads near Jasper Alberta also died on a tree in the shape of a cross. The image there is the "choking lie" [that humans are], as if it was a small stone in their mouth that they 'could not utter' and so needed to die on the cross. Beautiful imagery there and known to be a parallel of Finnigans Wake.** The tree was called "the school marm tree" and they had a doubting Thomas there too.

* The Indians always knew that there was a woman trailing behind them, but she never could speak because her mouth was always filled with wind, dust, mud or with snow. So funny it is .

And here then so called Christian worship that 'choking lie' as if it was an end in itself. Funnier yet .

** To add that is is just a small book that is circular in myth with no history itself.

outhouse

thats not true in any sense in this context


and we have cross cultural oral tradition to guide historicity


the time he was on the cross and what happened afterwards, has zero historicity