Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 11-27-2012, 07:13 PM

It took a long time for people to die from crucifixion. Jesus's speedy death much have been a world record. The only mitigating question is the claim of his limbs being nailed. But isn't there significance to the speedy death i.e. showing that he wasn't really human?

spin · 11-27-2012, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It took a long time for people to die from crucifixion. Jesus's speedy death much have been a world record. The only mitigating question is the claim of his limbs being nailed. But isn't there significance to the speedy death i.e. showing that he wasn't really human?

Naaa, this was a scribal intervention to reduce the length of his suffering, I says, fumbling for a shred of a reference to defend such a conjecture. (I just added that last part out of sympathy with the conjecture in your rhetorical question.) It's bad enough that an innocent victim must die to save the world, but why should he suffer any longer than necessary to complete his noble task?

stephan huller · 11-27-2012, 07:46 PM

So which part do you think was invention? The trial just before passover or the death like a day later?

Sheshbazzar · 11-27-2012, 07:59 PM

Tick-Tock said the Ticktockman. Everything is on a precise time schedule,

And is on a time limitation. Time is of the essence;

From the First hour of the First day of the First month,

Unto the three hundred and sixtieth hour,

and from thence unto the end of the twelve hundredth hour.

Every hour, every minute, every second, in its place and accounted for.

The time, times, and the half of time, is even now, running out.

Repent! says The Ticktockman.

sotto voce · 11-27-2012, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

It took a long time for people to die from crucifixion. Jesus's speedy death much have been a world record. The only mitigating question is the claim of his limbs being nailed. But isn't there significance to the speedy death i.e. showing that he wasn't really human?

So what was he?

Minimalist · 11-27-2012, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So which part do you think was invention? The trial just before passover or the death like a day later?

Both.

(Along with the rest of it.)

Sheshbazzar · 11-27-2012, 08:28 PM

Why do you think the texts tell you that it was 'the third hour', 'the sixth hour', and at 'the ninth hour? And that 'The Sabbath drew on'
What hours in the week were these? What hours in that year?

You figure this out and you will hold -in your hands- the keys to millions of other things.
Things you have never known, things you have not understood.

But don't expect to have anyone listen or to accept or believe what you will find;
Its against their religion. :Cheeky:

spin · 11-27-2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

So which part do you think was invention? The trial just before passover or the death like a day later?

The speedy death--that was what you were musing about. He probably suffered excruciatingly for daze and daze.

stephan huller · 11-27-2012, 09:49 PM

My point was there's the trial and then his death back to back. Once you start moving the goalposts the more the uncertainty is about the reliability of the gospel narrative. Let's not forget it was by no means settled that he suffered:

Quote:

He really, and not merely in appearance, was crucified, and died, in the sight of beings in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth. [Ignatius to the Romans long version]

But if, as some that are without God, that is, the unbelieving, say, He became man in appearance, that He did not in reality take unto Him a body, that He died in appearance, and did not in very deed suffer, then for what reason am I now in bonds, and long to be exposed to the wild beasts? [ibid]

He was crucified in reality, and not in appearance, not in imagination, not in deceit. He really died, and was buried, and rose from the dead, even as He prayed in a certain place, saying, "But do Thou, O Lord, raise me up again, and I shall recompense them." [ibid]

Now, He suffered all these things for us; and He suffered them really, and not in appearance only, even as also He truly rose again. But not, as some of the unbelievers, who are ashamed of the formation of man, and the cross, and death itself, affirm, that in appearance only, and not in truth, He took a body of the Virgin, and suffered only in appearance, forgetting, as they do, Him who said, "The Word was made flesh; " [to the Smyrnaeans]

For if the Lord were in the body in appearance only, and were crucified in appearance only, then am I also bound in appearance only. And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, I endure all things for Christ, not in appearance only, but in reality, that I may suffer together with Him, while He Himself inwardly strengthens me [ibid]

I have learned that certain of the ministers of Satan have wished to disturb you, some of them asserting that Jesus was born in appearance, was crucified in appearance, and died in appearance; others that He is not the Son the Creator, and others that He is Himself God over all. [to the Tarsians]

Wherefore, also, he works in some that they should deny the cross, be ashamed of the passion, call the death an appearance, mutilate and explain away the birth of the Virgin, and calumniate the [human] nature itself as being abominable. He fights along with the Jews to a denial of the cross, and with the Gentiles to the calumniating of Mary, who are heretical in holding that Christ possessed a mere phantasmal body ... For if the Lord were a mere man, possessed of a soul and body only, why do you mutilate and explain away His being born with the common nature of humanity? Why do you call the passion a mere appearance, as if it were any strange thing happening to a [mere] man? And why do you reckon the death of a mortal to be simply an imaginary death? [to the Philippians]

The point is that the two should be taken together - the quick death and the strong tradition the quick death means that it was only in appearance. Pilate had been surprised at the speed of death, so wanted it verified. It's as central to the narrative as the Passover.

Sheshbazzar · 11-27-2012, 10:09 PM

The story is a thabniyth, a conformity to, and 'repetition' of an ancient 'pattern', and is allegorical in nature, not an account to be taken as reliable literal history.

Its layout serves primarily to provide a matrix or time structure in which to repeat the time pattern or sequence of the First Passover;

'In the tenth day...'
'...until the fourteenth day of the same month:'
'...at midnight',
'...until the morning.'
'on the fifteenth day of the same month...'

The story line requires that he be dead and buried before the end of the fourteenth day of the month, that is to say before the end of the three hundred and thirty sixth hour in that month, and in that year.
Time and speed were of the essence in the story. What had to be done, had to be fully accomplished 'been erv'eem' 'between the evenings' ...of the fourteenth day'.

The entire Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis through Revelations, is a literary mnemonic device providing a set-apart paradigm to contain and permanently retain ancient mathematical and geometrical principals pertaining to the accounting and calculating of time, its sequences, and divisions.

Whatever you do, Do Not Believe This.

11-27-2012, 07:13 PM	#1
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Isn't the Speed at Which Jesus Dies on the Cross a Sign He Wasn't Real to Begin With? It took a long time for people to die from crucifixion. Jesus's speedy death much have been a world record. The only mitigating question is the claim of his limbs being nailed. But isn't there significance to the speedy death i.e. showing that he wasn't really human?

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

11-27-2012, 07:46 PM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So which part do you think was invention? The trial just before passover or the death like a day later?

11-27-2012, 07:59 PM	#4
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Tick-Tock said the Ticktockman. Everything is on a precise time schedule, And is on a time limitation. Time is of the essence; From the First hour of the First day of the First month, Unto the three hundred and sixtieth hour, and from thence unto the end of the twelve hundredth hour. Every hour, every minute, every second, in its place and accounted for. The time, times, and the half of time, is even now, running out. Repent! says The Ticktockman.

11-27-2012, 08:28 PM	#7
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Why do you think the texts tell you that it was 'the third hour', 'the sixth hour', and at 'the ninth hour? And that 'The Sabbath drew on' What hours in the week were these? What hours in that year? You figure this out and you will hold -in your hands- the keys to millions of other things. Things you have never known, things you have not understood. But don't expect to have anyone listen or to accept or believe what you will find; Its against their religion. :Cheeky:

11-27-2012, 10:09 PM	#10
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	The story is a thabniyth, a conformity to, and 'repetition' of an ancient 'pattern', and is allegorical in nature, not an account to be taken as reliable literal history. Its layout serves primarily to provide a matrix or time structure in which to repeat the time pattern or sequence of the First Passover; 'In the tenth day...' '...until the fourteenth day of the same month:' '...at midnight', '...until the morning.' 'on the fifteenth day of the same month...' The story line requires that he be dead and buried before the end of the fourteenth day of the month, that is to say before the end of the three hundred and thirty sixth hour in that month, and in that year. Time and speed were of the essence in the story. What had to be done, had to be fully accomplished 'been erv'eem' 'between the evenings' ...of the fourteenth day'. The entire Bible from beginning to end, from Genesis through Revelations, is a literary mnemonic device providing a set-apart paradigm to contain and permanently retain ancient mathematical and geometrical principals pertaining to the accounting and calculating of time, its sequences, and divisions. Whatever you do, Do Not Believe This.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.