Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-26-2009, 01:44 PM

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Words YHWH spoke in the bible are true and accurate.

Except when they state something contrary to your beliefs and then you feel free to invent new meanings for the words. :thumbs:

I show you there are several meanings to the words that were used in ancient Hebrew. And I back up my statements with facts.

Dark Virtue · 09-26-2009, 04:06 PM

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

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Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Except when they state something contrary to your beliefs and then you feel free to invent new meanings for the words. :thumbs:

I show you there are several meanings to the words that were used in ancient Hebrew. And I back up my statements with facts.

Let's assume for a second that the words God spoke were ,indeed, true and accurate.

As you have just shown, the written record, done by man, is full of mistranslations and subject to widely different interpretations. Just looking within Christianity you can see the major differences based upon ONE book.

Why is that?

You want us non-Christians to stand up and take notice? Unite under one Christian banner, meld into one sect and then I can start believing in what you are trying to preach.

ChristMyth · 09-26-2009, 04:22 PM

Why do I feel the "The Originals were inerrant!!" argument is somewhere on the horizon?

IBelieveInHymn · 09-27-2009, 06:37 AM

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Originally Posted by Dark Virtue

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I show you there are several meanings to the words that were used in ancient Hebrew. And I back up my statements with facts.

Let's assume for a second that the words God spoke were ,indeed, true and accurate.

As you have just shown, the written record, done by man, is full of mistranslations and subject to widely different interpretations. Just looking within Christianity you can see the major differences based upon ONE book.

Why is that?

You want us non-Christians to stand up and take notice? Unite under one Christian banner, meld into one sect and then I can start believing in what you are trying to preach.

The words Jesus spoke were true and accurate. Scholars and experts have disected these verses and language. Unedcuated Christians could care less if Jesus said he would return in precisely the year 50ad. That doesn't matter, people still believe in Jesus. Jesus did seem to speak in a language that was confusing, I admit that, but if you see "I will return before you die" as to, "this race shall not perish until the end of the world." This would seem confusing and certainly a contradiction.

I know of many Christians who believe Jesus meant "The Ressurection" when he said "some of you shall not taste death." There are literally several different ways you can translate Jesus' words.

Jesus said, this generation shall not taste death until you see the coming of the Son." This could easily mean he was foretelling his ressurection. He said his return to earth will be the coming of the Son in all his Glory.

When Jesus told his Disciples this bread is my broken body, and this wine is my blood.. they had absolutely no idea what he was telling them until they witnessed him being crucified 3 days later.

Either way, atheists have their hands full trying to discredit this verse.

Sai · 09-27-2009, 06:40 AM

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

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Originally Posted by Deus Ex

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/

There are plenty more errors and contradictions that we can be discussing.

I believe that most Christian churches-including evangelical ones- have abandoned the doctrine of strict biblical inerrancy. The weight of evidence is against inerrancy. Further, the bible itself never claims to be inerrant.

I have yet to find an error in the bible.

The Words YHWH spoke in the bible are true and accurate.

So there is no error in the noahs ark story? That could not possibly have happened? could not have happened and left no evidence? no error ?

Deus Ex · 09-27-2009, 06:44 AM

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

.

When Jesus told his Disciples this bread is my broken body, and this wine is my blood.. they had absolutely no idea what he was telling them until they witnessed him being crucified 3 days later.

Either way, atheists have their hands full trying to discredit this verse.

It is no trouble to discredit something that was not even written by an eyewitness.

ChristMyth · 09-27-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The words Jesus spoke were true and accurate.

The problem is, IBIH, is that we don't know what Jesus said, if he said anything at all! How can you say that "The words Jesus spoke were true and accurate."

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Scholars and experts have disected these verses and language.

What does this have to with anything. Please cite the scholars and experts your refer to here, please.

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Unedcuated Christians could care less if Jesus said he would return in precisely the year 50ad. That doesn't matter, people still believe in Jesus.

I'm confused, are you suggesting that ignorance is a good thing? Do you consider yourself "uneducated?" If not, then are you saying you do not believe this?

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Jesus did seem to speak in a language that was confusing, I admit that, but if you see "I will return before you die" as to, "this race shall not perish until the end of the world." This would seem confusing and certainly a contradiction.

But shouldn't the book that we all are to be judged by be more plain? I mean, God does want to save people from their sins, doesn't he? If so, why would the only words spoken by God be so confusing?

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I know of many Christians who believe Jesus meant "The Ressurection" when he said "some of you shall not taste death." There are literally several different ways you can translate Jesus' words.

Could this be the reason that there are so many denominations that cannot agree? I thought God wasn't the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but of peace?

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Jesus said, this generation shall not taste death until you see the coming of the Son." This could easily mean he was foretelling his ressurection. He said his return to earth will be the coming of the Son in all his Glory.

Okay, let's look at this verse...but in context.

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Originally Posted by Mark 13

1And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!

2And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately,

4Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?

5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:

6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.

8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows.

9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them.

10And the gospel must first be published among all nations.

11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.

12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death.

13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:

16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.

17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.

19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:

22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,

25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:

29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.

30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

34For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.

35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:

36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.

37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

So, within context, is Jesus actually refering to his Resurrection? As you can see, the "these things" are refering to everything else that preceds it. Unless you can show that everything listed happened before Jesus Resurrection, then we can only conclude that Jesus is speaking of something else.

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When Jesus told his Disciples this bread is my broken body, and this wine is my blood.. they had absolutely no idea what he was telling them until they witnessed him being crucified 3 days later.

No, what we have is a literary device by the authors of the texts to show that Jesus was much smarter than the disciples. This makes the main character, in this case Jesus, stand out more. The disciples were props to bounce the message the author wanted to convey off of. This is the reason that they didn't comprehend a lot of things in the Gospels.

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Either way, atheists have their hands full trying to discredit this verse.

Actually, its the theist that has his/her hands full.

Amaleq13 · 09-27-2009, 10:00 AM

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Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I show you there are several meanings to the words that were used in ancient Hebrew. And I back up my statements with facts.

No, you don't. You make things up and then ignore posts that point it out.

You claimed that Isaiah 45:7 says God "permits" evil but you offered nothing to support this apparently unique interpretation.

Your conclusions simply cannot withstand an honest consideration of the texts.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-27-2009, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amaleq13

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

I show you there are several meanings to the words that were used in ancient Hebrew. And I back up my statements with facts.

No, you don't. You make things up and then ignore posts that point it out.

You claimed that Isaiah 45:7 says God "permits" evil but you offered nothing to support this apparently unique interpretation.

Your conclusions simply cannot withstand an honest consideration of the texts.

Yes, I said God permits evil for a greater good. That makes perfect sense.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-27-2009, 12:01 PM

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Originally Posted by ChristMyth

The problem is, IBIH, is that we don't know what Jesus said, if he said anything at all! How can you say that "The words Jesus spoke were true and accurate."

What do you mean if he said anything at all? Of course Jesus spoke. That's common knowledge. The historical Jesus is no longer in question, because even most atheists agree that Jesus Christ was an actual person, but did have Divine powers is in question.

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What does this have to with anything. Please cite the scholars and experts your refer to here, please.

I will post them later. Most of them are Jewish scholars from Israel.

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I'm confused, are you suggesting that ignorance is a good thing? Do you consider yourself "uneducated?" If not, then are you saying you do not believe this?

I consider myself a thinker. I look at a verse, and I research every possible angle. I see Jesus saying "I will return before the Jews perish." You see it as Jesus saying he will return before the first century expires. That is sheer ignorance.

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But shouldn't the book that we all are to be judged by be more plain? I mean, God does want to save people from their sins, doesn't he? If so, why would the only words spoken by God be so confusing?

It is plain, heck I understand it. What's your excuse? I admit some verses are hard to understand, but you got to search for the answers.

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Could this be the reason that there are so many denominations that cannot agree? I thought God wasn't the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33), but of peace?

Who's confused? It doesn't matter if there are 400,000 denominations, everyone agrees that Eternal salvation is through Christ. That's the bottom line.

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So, within context, is Jesus actually refering to his Resurrection? As you can see, the "these things" are refering to everything else that preceds it. Unless you can show that everything listed happened before Jesus Resurrection, then we can only conclude that Jesus is speaking of something else.

Yes, the verse when Jesus said some of you standing here shall not taste death until you see the coming of the Son in his Glory. That could possibly mean his Ressurection. He was promising he would arise.

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Actually, its the theist that has his/her hands full.

My hands aren't full. I'm being bombarded with questions, and I still log on to answer them. I know it's the answers you don't want to see, but that's your decision.

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09-26-2009, 04:22 PM	#63
ChristMyth Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US Posts: 1,055	Why do I feel the "The Originals were inerrant!!" argument is somewhere on the horizon?

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