mountainman

Let's take this back to a third century bar in downtown Alexandria, and the prefect has carted away the urban warrior and a physician of Asclepius is treating the victim of abuse. One of the Prefect's assistants is questioning the eyewitenesses in the bar which is filled by an Academic Theological Conference, and moves to the last two tables where three men are sitting at each table - obviously Academic Theologicans of some sort judging by their dress.

At the second last table he takes the name of
Ammonius the Platonist Theologian,
Origen the Platonist theologian (the student of Ammonias) and
Anatonius the Platonist theologian.

At the last table he takes the name of Ammonius the Christian Theologian,
Origen the Christian theologian (the student of Ammonius) and
Anatonius the Christian Bishop.

Each party of three expect a fourth theologian to join them shortly called Porphyry.

Would the Prefect's assistant not find this coincidental?

In fact he does find it coincidental, and after work, hands the problem over to the mathematicians of Alexandria to calculate the ORDER of improbability of this occurrence with the duplicate identities.

stephan huller

But Origen wasn't in Alexandria much. He seems to have left at an early age and the 'facts' of his return are certainly up for debate. My point is how can you know for certain that two shadowy figures are one and the same when the name 'Origen' is so common among native Egyptians?

mountainman

Its more than that - it's quite shadowy ...




How many native 3rd century Egyptians were literate academic theologians called Origen with a teacher called Ammonius and for whom extant works are attributed? Scholarship (not me) argues that there must have been two Origens - one a christian and one a Platonist theologian. Scholarship also argues that there must have been two Ammonii - one a christian and one a Platonist theologian. Recent scholarship has also argued that there must have been two Anatolii - one a christian and one a Platonist theologian.

The presence of THREE duplicate identities is well against the odds.

Historically, the Platonists were forgotten, and Ammonius, Origen and Anatolius were singular important Christian theologians. Classical studies has only recently DISAMBIGUATED the duplications.

Toto

The footnote here made me think of this thread

mountainman

But what percentage of the population were attending the Academy of Plato and the more secretive academy of the Christians in the 3rd century in Alexandria? I think the odds are different in the 3rd century than they are in the 21st Toto.

You have to keep in mind that the specification of the problem invoves two separate teams A and B from which to select this series duplicate pairs, P1, P2, P3 etc.


Someone else suggested the case of the quadruplet brothers named Darryl:

stephan huller

But what percentage of the population were attending the Academy of Plato and the more secretive academy of the Christians in the 3rd century in Alexandria? I think the odds are different in the 3rd century than they are in the 21st Toto.

What is the Academy of Plato and how does it relate to this discussion?

What is the Academy of the Christians in 3rd century Alexandria and what proof do we have that Origen the Platonist attended it?

mountainman

The apostolic succession of the followers of Plato not only preserved the canon of Plato's original greek writings, they represented an academy of philosophers (and mathematicians, etc) who we must assume co-existed alongside a very small but emergent academy of canonical Christians - who preserved the Greek writings of Mark, Matt, Luke, John and Paul.



Call it a Congregation of the Christians in 3rd century Alexandria if the term "academy" is too rich for the "Early Christians". The question is not what proof do we have that Origen the Platonist attended the Congregation of the Christians, because the experts who I have cited are not making this claim. The experts who I have cited are making the claim that it is more likely that Origen the Platonist attended the Congregation of Platonists quite coincidentally as a student of Ammonius the Platonist, while Origen the Christian attended the Congregation of the Christians as a student of Ammonius the Christian.

A better question for you would be this ....

When Arius of Alexandria refered to his father as Ammonius, was he referring to Ammonias Saccas the father of 3rd century Platonism, or to Ammonias the Christian?

stephan huller

First Origen the Platonist is Origen the Christian. Now Ammonius Saccas is the father of Arius. Why does the population of ancient Egypt seem to dwindling down to four people?

mountainman

See Andrew's blog here:



So, when Arius of Alexandria refered to his father as Ammonius, was he referring to Ammonias Saccas the father of 3rd century Platonism, or to Ammonius the Christian, or to another Ammonius altogether?


Are you are asking me about the Christian population of ancient Egypt in the 3rd century CE? That's 4 too many. The numbers of Christians who existed in the 3rd century are IMHO best represented in terms of transcendental numbers.

stephan huller

But you keep piling on questionable assumptions one on top of the other to the point that the likelihood that ALL of them are true is next to zero. And your theory depends on this improbable outcome.

Just look at this way. Origen and Ammonius are names which derive from popular Egyptian gods. I have already demonstrated that Origen was a common name in Egypt (not surprising as it derives from a popular Egyptian god = Horus). Now you bring forward Ammonius. I can think of a number of Pharaohs who were named Amun. If I took this stupidity seriously I would go to trismegistos.org and actually give you the number. But this is so stupid, I can't even bother.

They were common names. Give it up. This is going nowhere.