Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-12-2011, 05:34 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

Call me a conspiracy theorist but the fact that Origen was a 'gun for hire' - i.e. his relationship with his patron Ambrose has to factor into the equation. You could literally pay Origen to argue for something and he would do it.

Sounds like a mercanery.

A 3rd century conspiracy theory must explain the evidence.

Which Origen, and which teacher Ammonias?

Some scholars and academics are convinced that there were two separate historical figures of the third century (same dates of birth and death) called Origen - one a Platonist and one a Christian. This remarkable duplication is not the only one, since the historical figure of Ammonias Saccas (the teacher of Origen) is also seen to be duplicated in the 3rd century. Some scholars and academics are convinced that there were two separate historical figures of the third century (same dates of birth and death) called Ammonias.

We may also add Anatolius of Alexandria to this list of duplicated historical figures, in each case - one a historical Platonist and the other asserted in the history of Eusebius to be an historical christian.

Manichaeanism

How do we separate the appearance of a 3rd century christianity from the very well attested appearance of a 3rd century Manichaeanism throughout the Roman Empire?

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Notice that even Africanus becomes a bishop of Emmaus is strange as this is the city in the revised Marcion gospel (Luke 24:13-27) that Jesus appeared to two disciples who were walking from Jerusalem. Coincidence?

If you are using a Christian origin after the rule of Trajan in the very early 2nd century, then you would have available to you the Roman historian Florus Quintilius Varus Florus's Epitome of Roman History – II, 88 in which he writes that 2,000 Jews of the town Emmaus were crucified by Trajan. Is this a coincidence? Anyone writing or reading after c.102 CE would know that there was a mass crifixion event of Jews under Trajan, and that of all places in the Roman Empire for author of the Jesus stories to have Jesus first appear to people after his resurrection from the Cross of Death, Emmaus would be a hot favorite.

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I am not so sure but I firmly believe the Christian scriptures underwent a complete revision in the early third century and Origen was paid to facilitate the transfer of authority.

And yet you have no comments about this essay

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Originally Posted by ABSTRACT

A systematic pattern of evidence discloses that the 3rd century apostolic lineage of the academy of Plato was the victim of numerous indentify thefts which were subsequently used to bolster the 3rd century apostolic lineage of the academy of the Christians.

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Now remember scholars explain this by implying that Origen somehow 'decided' or was forced by circumstance to change texts. Yet this is a very weak explanation. Not only Origen have the means to obtain the text, he is supposed to have went back to Alexandria c. 230 CE. He should have been able to get the original material back then. Why did he change? What can account for this amazingly significant decision?

According to Grant, Eusebius. See the opening paragraph of Grant's (1970) Early Alexandrian Christianity

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Originally Posted by Robert M Grant professor of New Testament and Early Christianity

Nearly everything that is recorded about the early history of Alexandrian Christianity lies in the Church History of Eusebius. Many Alexandrian theological writings are preserved, but as might be expected they cast little light on historical events. Now the basic difficulty with Eusebius' work is that it has to be classified as "official history." It therefore contains a judicious mixture of authentic record with a good deal of suppression of fact and occasional outright lies. He wrote it in defence of himself and his friends and their outlook toward the nascent imperial church establishment under God's messenger Constantine.

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It is impossible to overestimate the holiness ascribed to the Scriptures in the early Church. One didn't change recensions like fashion. Something significant must have 'convinced' Origen to change his mind.

I think we're in agreement on this point.

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And in case anyone is wondering - there is no record of a Commentary on Mark being associated with Origen. It is a false construct developed by Adela Collins in her Hermeneia commentary on Mark She argues that Origen might have compiled a commentary on Mark based on the way he exegetes Markan passages in his commentaries on Matthew and John (p. 105), but if he did there is no more trace of it. It's typical scholarly bullshit.

stephan huller · 10-12-2011, 06:02 PM

We can never be in agreement about the idea that everything and everyone before the fourth century was invented by Eusebius. I'm not in a straight jacket yet

mountainman · 10-12-2011, 06:14 PM

Origen the Christian and Ammonias the Christian is not an invention of everyone in the 3rd century. It is an invention of two false identities which were taken from real historical people who are studied by the Classicists - Ammonias Saccas the father of Neoplatonism and Origen the Platonist his student, who may have been the author of the Hexapla. (His Greek LXX translation was used for posterity). A third identity theft of Anatolius the Platonist mathematician, allowed Anatolius the Christian Bishop to present very important documents in evidence of the Ptolemaic Legend and provenance of the LXX.

The idea that Origen the Christian is not the same person as Origen the Platonist AND the idea that Ammonias the Christian is not the same person as Ammonias Saccas the father of Neoplatonism is NOT my idea, but the idea of contemporary scholarship for Christ's sake stephan. It's plastered on WIKI for good measure - both identities have DISAMBIGUATION pages.

These are not my ideas. How has this state of affairs arisen in academic assessment?

stephan huller · 10-12-2011, 06:22 PM

How did Origen the non-Christian write a Commentary on Matthew or the hundred or so books directly related to the Christian Bible? I cringe in anticipation of your reply

mountainman · 10-12-2011, 06:26 PM

Did you read anything of my essay?

Quote:

"The most important fact in the history of Christian Doctrine
was that the father of Christian Theology, Origen,
was a Platonic philosopher at the school of Alexandria.
He built into Christian Doctrine the whole
cosmic drama of the soul, which he took from Plato."

Harvard Theological Review (1959);
cited by Bernard Simon (2004),
The Essence of the Gnostics, p.111

stephan huller · 10-12-2011, 06:47 PM

So you have finally turned your back from that fourth century nonsense? You accept that Origen was a third century Platonist Christian? Miracles happen everyday.

mountainman · 10-12-2011, 07:09 PM

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Originally Posted by stephan huller

So you have finally turned your back from that fourth century nonsense?

So you have not yet taken the time to read my essay?
I can understand that - you think I have nothing to say.

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You accept that Origen was a third century Platonist Christian?

I dont accept the existence of two historical Origen's with the same dates of birth and death in the 3rd century without a few preliminary questions on what appears to be a DUPLICATION. You must admit it is quite coincidental. There is literature about this. I have posted it.

Re: the Plato quote

Is your irony meter broken. Are you a student of Jeffrey Gibson?

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Miracles happen everyday.

Yeah right. Regular as clockwork the sun rises.

stephan huller · 10-12-2011, 07:11 PM

You are clearly not reading the evidence put forward in the thread. This is why I have to go step by step. So there are two Origen according to you - one a Platonist Christian, the other a Platonist. Why aren't they one and the same? I am not interested in your answer. Who then was responsible for the hundreds of texts written by 'Origen' in the third century?

mountainman · 10-13-2011, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

You are clearly not reading the evidence put forward in the thread. This is why I have to go step by step. So there are two Origen according to you - one a Platonist Christian, the other a Platonist.

There are two Origen's according to academic discussion. I list a number of academic discussion in which this claim is made --- here. One of these sources is Andrew's blog here:

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"Origen the Platonists is almost (but not quite) certainly a different person
than Origen the Christian and his interpretation of the Parmenides was very unusual."

Also In discussing Porphyry's Egyptian 'de Abstinentia' II.47 M. J. Edwards disambiguates the "Pagan Origen" and the "Christian Origen".

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Why aren't they one and the same?
I am not interested in your answer.

Then ask Andrew Criddle or Mark Edwards for their answer to this question. Their argument is (apparently specifically) that they are NOT one and the same people., although Andrew's response is qualified.

andrewcriddle · 10-13-2011, 12:12 PM

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Originally Posted by mountainman

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Why aren't they one and the same?
I am not interested in your answer.

Then ask Andrew Criddle or Mark Edwards for their answer to this question. Their argument is (apparently specifically) that they are NOT one and the same people., although Andrew's response is qualified.

They are probably differerent: eg Origen the Platonist dedicated to the Emperor Gallienus a work on philosophy called "That the king is the only creator". This was probably written during Gallienus' sole rule ie not before 260. By then Origen the Christian was probably dead. (Note the large number of probablys.)

Andrew Criddle

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10-12-2011, 06:02 PM	#2
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	We can never be in agreement about the idea that everything and everyone before the fourth century was invented by Eusebius. I'm not in a straight jacket yet

10-12-2011, 06:14 PM	#3
mountainman Contributor Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Falls Creek, Oz. Posts: 11,192	Origen the Christian and Ammonias the Christian is not an invention of everyone in the 3rd century. It is an invention of two false identities which were taken from real historical people who are studied by the Classicists - Ammonias Saccas the father of Neoplatonism and Origen the Platonist his student, who may have been the author of the Hexapla. (His Greek LXX translation was used for posterity). A third identity theft of Anatolius the Platonist mathematician, allowed Anatolius the Christian Bishop to present very important documents in evidence of the Ptolemaic Legend and provenance of the LXX. The idea that Origen the Christian is not the same person as Origen the Platonist AND the idea that Ammonias the Christian is not the same person as Ammonias Saccas the father of Neoplatonism is NOT my idea, but the idea of contemporary scholarship for Christ's sake stephan. It's plastered on WIKI for good measure - both identities have DISAMBIGUATION pages. These are not my ideas. How has this state of affairs arisen in academic assessment?

10-12-2011, 06:22 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	How did Origen the non-Christian write a Commentary on Matthew or the hundred or so books directly related to the Christian Bible? I cringe in anticipation of your reply

10-12-2011, 06:47 PM	#6
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	So you have finally turned your back from that fourth century nonsense? You accept that Origen was a third century Platonist Christian? Miracles happen everyday.

10-12-2011, 07:11 PM	#8
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	You are clearly not reading the evidence put forward in the thread. This is why I have to go step by step. So there are two Origen according to you - one a Platonist Christian, the other a Platonist. Why aren't they one and the same? I am not interested in your answer. Who then was responsible for the hundreds of texts written by 'Origen' in the third century?

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