Clivedurdle

I would like more discussion of Galilee and Galileans....(and Judeans...)

Magdlyn

LOL. If you're associating YHWH with Voldemort, next thing you know, you'll be a gnostic.

Well, I'm no big expert compared to lots of the guys here. But. Looking forward to what else you've got.

Clive, when I finally started actually reading the Bible as literature I found it so interesting to realize how Hellenized the Galilee was. Place-names like Cesearea and Sepphoris! Nazareth not existing. Really eye-opening.

Magdlyn

Of course, the names Judith and Judas come from the place name Judah.

Interesting... surely the name Judas is not a popular one. In fact, it is synonymous with traitor, right? But there is a book in the Bible called Jude which must have been Judas in the Greek/Latin. And Judas Maccabeus (Judah Maccabee/Yehudah HaMakabi ["the hammer"] in Hebrew) was a hero/warrior/ruler of Judah, has 3 non-canonical books named after him in fact.

Looking up this Judah in wiki, one finds this:

LOL

Sarai

Hi Magdlyn! It's true--the word goy literally means nation, and was used on rare occasion in the bible to refer to "Voldemort"-worshippers, (Bwaah--that was fun! ) as in "goy gadol" (great nation) or "goy kadosh" (holy nation), but it is usually used in the bible (and now) to designate non-jews. Hence the common translation "gentile" since the term nation doesn't impart any non-jew connotation. The term isn't derogatory at all, it's just used to differentiate between Jew and non-Jew.

This is what I'm finding the most interesting. Remember Galilee wasn't part of the Northern Kingdom except for a very brief 25-45 year period sometime around the year 900 BCE. For most of the period of the Northern Kingdom, Galilee was associated with Damascus, not the Kingdom--and Damascus was very definitely not Voldemort-worshipping. Then, years before the Assyrians took the Northern Kingdom, they took Galilee and shuffled the population with another conquered area. So that's yet more non-Voldemort influence coming from 2 different sources--the Assyrians themselves and whatever population they settled into Galilee. And on and on it goes in Galilee with more and more "goy" influence as the Chaldeans take it, and later the Medians.

What I'm wondering about is that we have a tendency to lump Galilee in with the Northern Kingdom and its history, but if you actually stop and look at it, we really shouldn't do that because Galilee had very little history it shared with the N. Kingdom. Galilee seems to have had a much more "goy" history! I'm not saying there were no Voldemort-worshippers, but I am saying that it doesn't look like there could have been very many. And certainly it seems that it might be somewhat fallacious to call the Galilee a Voldemort-worshipping area.

Sarai

Clivedurdle

Loads of stuff by googling Roman Galilee including

http://www.baptistcenter.com/Journal...rn%20Jesus.pdf

(Should an academic use the phrase "holy land"?)

Magdlyn

I know it's not derogatory. "Heathen" and "pagan" however, can be. I also find Gentile to be a misunderstood term. I'd prefer the original translation, "nation" or the more specific "non-Jew." Altho of course, defining what it means to be a Jew is also difficult, but we've got to draw lines somewhere, I guess.


No, I did not know that. I assumed the region around Lake Genesaret/Chinereth, later known as L. Galilee, was part of Israel, either Napthali or Dan specifically. This is according to maps in my Oxford Annotated Bible, which shows Galilee as part of "Israel" in "Old Testament Times." Of course, that is a general unspecified time period!

Well, on the first page he also implies he is a member of "acadamia." Um, from a Baptist college. So I guess an adadamic can say holy land if he wants. :grin:

Sarai

Thanks for the link, Clive! Well, between that and the Baptist affiliation, it gives us a hint to where his head is at, doesn't it? I'm a bit concerned about his "scholarship" though--notice that he doesn't give us the approximate dates for all those synagogues. If I remember correctly from other sources, there's only one or two that might actually date to the first century. I could be wrong on that...I'd have to go back into my notes and see.

OK. I'll stick with "non-Jew". My concern is that I don't want to make the authors in question more "PC" than they were. I'm afraid that my forebears might have been a bit more xenophobic than I would like them to have been!

I did too, until I learned that King Baasa of Israel lost the area now known as Galilee to Aram-Damascus and the Northern Kingdom was consolidated into a smaller area than originally designated. I'm going to try to research Aramean Damascus a bit more to see if that will shed any further light. Everything I've found on Galilee so far is making it look like most of the Voldemort-worshippers would have been Hasmonean and post-Hasmonean transplants or forced converts. Well, there's nothing like a little project to keep me out of trouble!

Sarai

Magdlyn

Well, sure. The P's (priestly writers/editors of Tanakh) were really hard on native "idol-worshipers" and lovers of "foreign gods" (a mis-nomer, as they were quite local) Baal and Asherah. But the word they used was goyim. afaik, there really wasn't a word such as pagan or heathen. Gentile is originally a Greek word which now has several definitions, rendering it too vague, imo.

1. of or pertaining to any people not Jewish.
2. Christian, as distinguished from Jewish.
3. Mormon Church: not Mormon.
4. heathen or pagan.
5. (of a linguistic expression) expressing nationality or local origins.
6. of or pertaining to a tribe, clan, people, nation, etc.


Definition 1 and 6 work for this discussion, but the ones in the middle muddy the waters.

Goy: "Of or pertaining to a tribe, clan, people, nation, etc., which is non-Yahwistic monotheist."


When was this?

I think we need to define the timeline. I suppose I am thinking of the tale of the Joshua invasion, when YHWH gave different parts of Canaan to the 12 tribes. But perhaps you are referring to the "kingdom" alone, ie: beginning with Saul? David? Solomon? I think I am mixing up legends with the actual history, based on extra-biblical sources, that you are referring to.

I am sure there could have been pockets of Yahwists (monotheists) here and there all over Galilee and Samaria at any given time period, post-exile. Pre-exile? Doubtful.

From the wiki pg on Judas Maccabeus (167-160 BCE):

Who were these "Jews" outside of Judaea? :huh: Yahwistic monotheists? Judaeans who had moved north? Anyway, they were brought to Judaea, perhaps to protect* them from Hellenizing "Jews," and "pagan" Greco-Romans.

*Those who were attempting to protect their infants' foreskins.

Magdlyn

What about this site? It's biased towards Judaean/YHWHist theology, but does lay out a timeline of Galilean dynasties.

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/11israel.html

I have to laugh at the idea that Judah was more successful ("had the upper hand") because it was wealthier than Israel/Samaria. Unearthing the Bible demonstrates that the north was wealthier than the south (because more arable), which is what made it attractive to Assyria.

Also, there is no archeological evidence for a fantastic Solomonic temple/palace compound, whereas there is for the ivory house and beds of the palace of Ahab in the Samarian capitol.

(Just as an aside, I love the names Omri and Zimri.)

We see that Ahab's and JezebEL's children were named AthalJAH and AhazJAH, so they were obviously a YHWH worshipers, along with honoring Asherah and the Baal of Sidon. Jezebel has EL in her name, so might've honored him as well. Whether this El was considered to be identical with YHWH in Sidon or a separate god is debatable.

Sarai

Good morning, Magdlyn and everyone else who might drop by! I dearly wish that I had bookmarked all the sites I found having to do with Aram-Damascus, but since this research has been just to satisfy my own curiosity, I'm afraid I was lax in that department. I know there's a way to check the browser history on my computer...I just have to figure out how to do it. I promise I will, and I'll post here the sites as soon as I rediscover them! I'm sorry I was so lazy the first time around.:huh: I won't make that mistake again!

As for your question about the timeline on the loss of "Galilee" to Damascus--it was sometime between the years 911 and 888 BCE. Your right about my sources on the Galileean history I cited earlier--none of the info was biblical. I'll do a little forensic computer digging this afternoon and see if I can't get some more info for you.

I'll get back to this after I've fed my clan (and me!).

Sarai