Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vorkosigan · 01-14-2005, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Authority was given to them (US) over the fourth part of the earth (aisa), to kill with a long sward (nuclear bomb) and with food shortage and by the wild beasts of the earth (fall-out). Rev 6:8

That's a howler. The US never held a fourth part of the earth (technically Japan held about 1/4 of the earth's surface at their high-point), and how anyone could imagine that "wild beasts" meant fallout is absurd. Your interpretation is entirely idiosyncratic and subjective, and where factual, is wrong.

Vorkosigan

jadeus · 01-14-2005, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorkosigan

Jadeus, the idea that an omnipotent, ominscient God needed to murder 6 million Jews in order to bring about the state of Israel is absurd on its face. No argument necessary.

Vorkosigan

It was the lack of "an omnipotent, ominscient God " (secular Nazism) which murdered 6 million jews. It was Jahovahs promise that created Isreal and defeated the Nazi. (via the creation of the US and the gift of the bomb)

Toto · 01-15-2005, 12:07 AM

Nazis were not "secular" as we understand the term. They used Christianity as a prop to their state.

I'm not sure that this thread belongs in this forum, as opposed to ~E~.

Chris Weimer · 01-15-2005, 03:19 AM

Retroactive application of verses to support your theory. Give us a future prediction (besides obvious ones like "the sun will rise tomorrow, there'll be another war, people will die") and if it comes true I'll start talking. Thousands of people predicted war, pestilence, and plague. So what?

Sven · 01-15-2005, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

Retroactive application of verses to support your theory. Give us a future prediction (besides obvious ones like "the sun will rise tomorrow, there'll be another war, people will die") and if it comes true I'll start talking. Thousands of people predicted war, pestilence, and plague. So what?

Yeah - I think Nostradamus did much better than Jesus if we are allowed to interpret prophecies this way.

MortalWombat · 01-15-2005, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Nazis were not "secular" as we understand the term.

Nazi belt buckle:

Translated: "God with us"

jadeus · 01-15-2005, 12:35 PM

I agree thta Nazism was a form of Christianity. The persecution of the Jew was an indication of the religious nature of thier cause: after all, they did kill Jesus. But heres a good artical about all of this.

Hitler wanted Pope Pius kidnapped-Catholic paper

jadeus · 01-15-2005, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ojuice5001

Jadeus,

I don't even believe that Yahweh is omnipotent and omniscient, and I still can't conceive that he would have been incapable of devising a historical pathway to a state of Israel that didn't sacrifice the lives of six million Jews. A few well-placed charismatic leaders could probably do the trick. You're not saying that Yahweh is unable to raise up charismatic leaders, are you? I certainly don't think that.

I do think that after the war was over, Yahweh took the opportunity to set up the Israeli state. The same one that has to take a lot of the blame for the militant outlook of so many Middle Easterners today. But I think it's quite clear that he didn't plan the Holocaust; rather, he was unable to prevent it. Returning to that whole "not omnipotent and omniscient" thing.

For a short answer to this, I would go to another great genius of history. That is, St. Thomas Aquinas, The Summa Theologica, Second article, WHETHER THE HIGHEST GOOD, GOD, IS THE CAUSE OF EVIL?

Objection I. It would seem that the highest good, God, is the cause of evil. For it is said, “I am the Lord, there is no other God, forming light, and creating darkness, making peace, and creating evil�? Isa. 5:7

On the contrary, Augustine says that, God is not the author of evil, because He is not the cause of tending toward non-being.

I answer that, as appears from what is said, the evil which consists in defect of action is always caused by the defect of the agent. But in God there is no defect, but the highest perfection, as shown above. – St. Aquinas

The evil of the holocaust would have been over-shadowed by the millions who could have died by atomic bomb in London and New York City. The guiding hand was taking away this weapon from Hitler.

Toto · 01-15-2005, 01:25 PM

This is going off to ~Elsewhere~ now.

jadeus · 01-15-2005, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cweb255

Retroactive application of verses to support your theory. Give us a future prediction (besides obvious ones like "the sun will rise tomorrow, there'll be another war, people will die") and if it comes true I'll start talking. Thousands of people predicted war, pestilence, and plague. So what?

The history of world is the wonder of God. It is only in retrospect that you can grasp the perfection and the inclination of a "design". I don't believe that this design ever included a "TV Guide" of the future of the world events.

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01-15-2005, 12:07 AM	#13
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Nazis were not "secular" as we understand the term. They used Christianity as a prop to their state. I'm not sure that this thread belongs in this forum, as opposed to ~E~.

01-15-2005, 03:19 AM	#14
Chris Weimer Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: none Posts: 9,879	Retroactive application of verses to support your theory. Give us a future prediction (besides obvious ones like "the sun will rise tomorrow, there'll be another war, people will die") and if it comes true I'll start talking. Thousands of people predicted war, pestilence, and plague. So what?

01-15-2005, 12:35 PM	#17
jadeus Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Colorado Posts: 132	I agree thta Nazism was a form of Christianity. The persecution of the Jew was an indication of the religious nature of thier cause: after all, they did kill Jesus. But heres a good artical about all of this. Hitler wanted Pope Pius kidnapped-Catholic paper

01-15-2005, 01:25 PM	#19
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is going off to ~Elsewhere~ now.

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