Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
So what? So everything we see is energy and now we know God's secrets.
Does it bother you that your heroes where Christians?
Does it bother you that many of them (physicist) were not (Christian)?
|
It would bother me if an atheist physicist lacked love for humanity and was unaware of the struggle between good and evil in a macro- sense. A display of some type of ethical system should be a requirement of any physicist who deals with atomic physics.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Einstein for example was absolutely not christian. He said so explicitely. He did believe in some form of God but it was not the christian god. He was a pantheist.
|
And according to your opinion and the opinions of so many on this forum, this genius would be considered a mindless sheep.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Even if some of them were christian so what? There are scientists today who are christian - the question is, are they christians because they are scientists or are they christians because they were born in a christian culture and happened to be scientists?
My bet would be on the latter.
|
Culture has a major impact and is a mechanism of God’s will. The empirical evidence of this is the development of the Christian culture which manifested this brilliance.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
Again, you don’t' really understand the Uncertainty Principle
.
My understanding is that Sven understand that principle better than most people. I would even dare to assume that he understands it better than you
|
(HOOK-LINE and Sinker) Are you sure that Sven has a better grasp of Uncertainty? I agree. Here is the Achilles heal of physics. Everything discovered since 1950 has been built on this unsolved mystery. There is logical loophole that the Physics community refuses to accept.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
Look at the big picture in terms of societies and timing and you see the perfection of the circumstances. Most of the discovery that lead to the bomb happened in Germany. It’s like America developing a missile shield for decades but just before a big war China gets one up. That would be unlikely? Miraculous? I think you understand but refuse to accept the word “miraculous�.
No miracle here I'm afraid. Rather, plain stupidity from Germany's point of view. HItler had an obsession with Jews and wanted them all killed. This has lead to many things, some of those things was of course that many jews died as a result of him being in control but other consequences were NOT forseen by Hitler and most likely not what he wanted.
|
We don’t disagree on the stupidity.
“Born in Wurzburg on 5 December 1901, Heisenberg studied physics at Munich under Arnold Sommerfeld. Between 1924 and 1927, he worked with Niels Bohr at Copenhagen, both men profoundly influencing the subsequent development of atomic physics
In the late 1920s, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle and his work in quantum mechanics, along with that of Schrodinger, de Broglie, Bohr, Einstein and Max Born, helped revolutionize the conceptual world of modern physics." -
"Who's Who in Nazi Germany"
All of the experts, manuscripts, buildings, scientific equipment, and momentum for a controlled nuclear reaction was in Germany. It’s a good thing they had a place to take this too. What if America never existed? America is the biggest miracle of the whole plan. Not only did this genius “pop-up� in the heart of Germany before being whisked away to the country that would defeat them, it lead to the formation of Israel and the completion of a chapter of Biblical Prophesy. Like one swift guiding hand.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
The creation of the state Israel is one thing. It in turn has lead to troubles in the middle east which we are suffering from even in this day.
|
Hence, further development in Biblical Prophesy incorporating the roots of Jehovah to bring in a Muslim culture for which the proliferation of Nuclear technology again becomes a concern.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
This could have been avoided if they had set up the state of Israel in some other way.
|
There is no way to stop this. It’s a prewritten destiny.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Part of the problem here is of course that Palestine was at that time under British control and they acted as the empire they always had - without asking the locals who happend to live in the area already if they wanted an invasion of new neighbours who wanted their land and who came with lots of cash and wealth and created a split society where jews were the ubermench and the local palestinian who had lived in that region for generaions were poor and untermench. You would think that the jews of all people would have learned that such a politics is evil and would have avoided it. However, it was the european jews who had learned that lesson and they had for a large part died in Hitler's gas chambers. Many of the jews in Israel were from US and russia and they had not necessarily learned that same lesson.
|
The Palestinians are as much a part of Allah’s plan as the Hebrew is Gods plan. ( perhaps the same interwoven plan). This nice kaleidoscope of religion is centered in the birth place of Jesus.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
So, even in 2005 we are having problems because of what Hitler did in 1945. The point is that if it weren't for Hitler's prosecution of the jews.
|
This problem goes back to the beginning of time. It’s not just Hitler’s fault. “The serpent-it deceived me and so I ate�….�For dust you are and to dust you will return.�
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Also, add in the fact that prior to 1939, racism was rather common in europe - it was "trendy" to think that some races was better than others and all that other bullshit.
|
Vestigial quality of human evolution.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
I guess that some of the brits and french etc who saw Hitler's gas chambers felt some guilt when they realized just how far such ideas can go and that added to the sentiment of giving the jews a homeland.
|
We are all still shocked by this.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Another consequence was of course that he ruined the german research environment since many of the scientists were jews and many who weren't themselves jews had jewish friends or were anti-nazi. Face it, nazism and rational thinking just isn't compatible and so it is no wonder then that researchers were generally opposed to nazism and so most of them only co-operated reluctantly with the nazi government.
|
“The 'Aryan' physicists in Nazi Germany led by Johannes Stark totally rejected Heisenberg's quantum mechanics, attacking him as a 'theoretical formalist' and the 'spirit of Einstein's spirit', who shared the fundamental perspectives of 'Jewish physics'. An ominous article in the SS organ Das Schwarze Korps (15 July 1937), entitled 'White Jews in Scholarship', even suggested that Heisenberg and other so-called 'Jews in character', rather than ancestry, should disappear.�
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Consequently, many researches had to find a new homeland and so looked to US. Also, a major reason why US started the Manhattan project was a result of a letter which some scientists wrote to the president and they did so because they thought that Hitler would "soon" make a nuclear bomb and they wanted US to get it first.
|
Ohh. I forgot about that letter by Einstein. So we agree the scientific community choose where this technology would go. (because God gave them USA?)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
As we all know, Hitler lost the war without the use of the bomb,
|
If the first use of atomic weaponry would have been on London, Hitler wins the war.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
the bomb was later used twice in Japan and actually as far as I know, Japan was already fairly well beaten down - US didn't drop the bomb so much to beat Japan which they already had done,
|
I’m not sure how to feel about this. My grandmother’s entire family was killed by the bomb on Hiroshima… but had this not occurred she never would have met my grandfather and come the US and I would not exist.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
it was more a signal to Russia that US wants the leading role in the post-war cleanup. "I have the bomb so I dictate the rules" was US message to Russia - the fact that a million japanese civilians - not military - died in sending that message was something they at that time didn't care much about.
|
The US was a carefully carved cultural, religious, and democratic institution. As an infant of world culture, it performed bravely.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
It is worth noting that the only nation to ever have dropped a nuclear device on any other nation is USA. Tell me again, who was in that axis of evil again?
|
There is links to the axis of evil in every country around the world. Some have more and some have less. USA is not at the top of the list.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Anyway, the bottom line is that it was no miracle. Just plain stupidity from the nazis side. But then nazis wasn't very smart. Rational mind and racism has never been compatible, so to be a nazi you need a certain amount of stupidity.
|
Agreed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
USA had money problems too (having just been through a depression). Plus they had to start from scratch with the program. I believe there is a more reasonable explanation however. That is it was the physics community choose who would have the bomb. Did this revolve around their religious beliefs? Who knows? There is this tiny issue that this persecution of the Hebrew lead to the formation of Israel. Unless you think the Jews conspired this and sacrificed 5 million of their own people? (Ridiculous)
USA and money problems is debatable. Yes, they may have money troubles but it is also a big country with lots of resources and lots of people. So even in a time with money problems, if they really set their mind to it, they have no trouble raising a couple of billion of dollars and that and the time and place to give those new scientists a new homeland was all it took. The president must have been a complete idiot if he had turned down that opportunity and instead told those scientists "Sorry, you better go and find some other country, I am sure Australia will accept some of you". It doesn't take a genius to figure out what to do in that situation - you open arms, provide some money and let those scientist work with whatever they are working on.
Also, that they started from scratch is bullshit. The german scientists came with perhaps not ready made plans but far from blank sheets. US got a head start at the same time as Germany lost theirs. It would be comparable to a big company putting money into a research program and then 2 month before closing their R&D dept all leaves their jobs and start working for a competitor. Do the competitor start from scratch? Not at all, well, in business laws you have rules against this, the researches can be prohibited to work on "related projects" in their next job, but in the world of politics there is no such laws. Only the law of the jungle and "might makes right".
The research community sort of chose to have the bomb. I will grant you that. Would you give the bomb to a nazi fuhrer who is busy killing people and imposing a dictatorship all over the world or would you rather let another nation have it, one who opposed the said fuhrer?
|
Power is the result of the natural phenomena which we are trying to understand. i.e. God
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
In hindsight many of them thinks that none of them should have had it and Einstein fully regretted that he was one of those who signed the letter to the president which caused the Manhattan project to start. There is no question that US abused the nuclear bomb
|
This was an awesome responsibility and it’s use was reluctant. But the cat’s out of the bag! (did the cat exist before it emerged?) and there’s no putting it back now.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
when they first had it and as such it was actually a good thing that Russia also got it shortly after - The cold war had some negative effects but it also had a good effect in that it - at least to some extent - caused both sides to show some restraint in their eagerness to dominate the world. In the period after 1946 to russia also got the bomb US didn't particularly show much restraint. As I said above, Japan had already lost the war when US decided to drop the bomb twice over Japan. They did it in sheer greed for power and not because they had to in order to win the war over Japan.
|
We had not won the war and even if Germany had surrendered there was the possibility of longer campaign in the Pacific. Plus, like I said it led to my existence so I’m willing to forgive the death of my ancestry.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
One may also add that the US space program would be impossible if it weren't for those german scientists.
|
Don’t get started on the recent lack of sound engineering in the US Space program right now.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
No miracle, just plain stupidity from the nazis and plain common sense from the US president was all that was needed for this "miracle" to take place. .
|
ORIGIN: Middle English: via Old
French from Latin miraculum ‘object of
wonder,’ from mirari ‘to wonder,’ from
mirus ‘wonderful.’
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Learn some history.
|
I LOVE being right causing this reaction. THANK You.
You might find some of it disturbing though, so a little warning is in place.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
Yes, very true. The invention of steam engine sparked fears of entire populations being sucked into a turbine. Come on!! Sorry, the ability to destroy the world did not exist before the Atom bomb. Duhhhh!
And US is the ONLY nation in the whole world who has until date actually dropped a bomb over enemy territory killing countless civilians, women and children who had no part in the war.
|
Again we would not even be having this exchange if this did not happen. (I won’t go into other cultures crimes against humanity like 9-11)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
Hint: 1) it was prophesized in the Bible; accounting for the claims
2) Speculation turned to reality with nuclear discoveries.
Care to show the bible quote which states "An bomb that will destroy the whole city will fall over Japan at the end of a great war". I know, I am not very good at finding bible quotes but this particular quote completely eludes me. Could you tell me which chapter and verse I can find it?
|
Umm- There’s a whole bunch of stuff about the “gashing of teach� and such. Try Revelations for a start. I don’t think that this “Knowledge=bomb=end of the world� thing is over yet. (N. Korea, Iran, Bin Landen, etc.)
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Alf
Originally Posted by jadeus
You don’t think the ability to destroy our plant is big, then that’s your problem. (but thanks for supporting my sense of humor)
I don't think his reference to joke is concerning the nuclear devices. I presume his "joke" reference is a reference to what you attempt to make out of it.
The nuclear bomb is serious business and far from a joke. The christians attempt to claim that the bible prophecies them etc is a joke however. A sad joke.
Alf
|
Well, you kept up with me till now. This last part you regress.
01-13-2005, 07:39 PM
Apple=sin=knowledge=atom bomb
