Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Vicar Philip · 12-17-2006, 08:27 AM

Napthali, I think you'll get some interesting insights from our Biblical History forum. Zap!

VP

Clivedurdle · 12-17-2006, 09:40 AM

The Origin of Satan (Paperback) by Elaine Pagels (or via: amazon.co.uk)

John Kesler · 12-17-2006, 12:12 PM

The Anchor Bible Dictionary, volume 2, pages 138-139, article: Demons, states that, "the use of the term demon in relation to the OT is problematic," but it acknowledges that Lilith (Isaiah 34:14) and Azazel (Leviticus 16) are "[g]enerally accepted as two specific demons referred to in the OT," and that Deuteronomy 32:17 and Psalm 106:37 mention demons that are "equated with false gods."

At any rate, there is nothing in the OT to compare to the NT's conception of demons under the command of Satan, working to harm humanity. This conception is elucidated in the book of Jubilees. Here is Jubilees 10:1-14:

Quote:

1 And in the third week of this jubilee the unclean demons began to lead astray the children of

2 the sons of Noah, and to make to err and destroy them. And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him concerning the demons which were leading astray and blinding and

3 slaying his sons' sons. And he prayed before the Lord his God, and said:

'God of the spirits of all flesh, who hast shown mercy unto me
And hast saved me and my sons from the waters of the flood,
And hast not caused me to perish as Thou didst the sons of perdition;

For Thy grace has been great towards me,
And great has been Thy mercy to my soul;

Let Thy grace be lift up upon my sons,
And let not wicked spirits rule over them
Lest they should destroy them from the earth.

4 But do Thou bless me and my sons, that we may increase and Multiply and replenish the earth.

5 And Thou knowest how Thy Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, acted in my day: and as for these spirits which are living, imprison them and hold them fast in the place of condemnation, and let them not bring destruction on the sons of thy servant, my God; for these are malignant, and

6 created in order to destroy. And let them not rule over the spirits of the living; for Thou alone canst exercise dominion over them. And let them not have power over the sons of the righteous

7,8 from henceforth and for evermore.' And the Lord our God bade us to bind all. And the chief of the spirits, Mastema, came and said: 'Lord, Creator, let some of them remain before me, and let them harken to my voice, and do all that I shall say unto them; for if some of them are not left to me, I shall not be able to execute the power of my will on the sons of men; for these are for corruption and leading astray before my judgment, for great is the wickedness of the sons of men.'

9 And He said: Let the tenth part of them remain before him, and let nine parts descend into the

10 place of condemnation.' And one of us He commanded that we should teach Noah all their

11 medicines; for He knew that they would not walk in uprightness, nor strive in righteousness. And we did according to all His words: all the malignant evil ones we bound in the place of condemna-

12 tion and a tenth part of them we left that they might be subject before Satan on the earth. And we explained to Noah all the medicines of their diseases, together with their seductions, how he

13 might heal them with herbs of the earth. And Noah wrote down all things in a book as we instructed him concerning every kind of medicine. Thus the evil spirits were precluded from

14 (hurting) the sons of Noah...

It is quite clear from the NT that Jesus, too, believed in Satan and his demons, and excorcisms are one of the hallmarks of Jesus' ministry. Personally, I find this to be one of the most compelling reasons to conclude that Jesus, rather than the "son of God," was a typical first-century Jew, who had no knowledge of the actual causes psychiatric disorders, epilepsy, and other diseases, and would readily infer demonic activity. See Luke 13:16; 10:17-18; Acts 10:38; Mark 1:32,34; 3:14-15; 6:7,13; 8:28 ff; Matthew 17:15-18 et al.

Malachi151 · 12-17-2006, 12:51 PM

I recommend that you read through some of my material here:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._evolution.htm

Particularly:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...stic_Worldview

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...nst_Naturalism

judge · 12-17-2006, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali Jones

Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I missing anything?

A good place to start, as far as the NT goes, is to check it out in Aramaic.

There are two different Aramaic words which were both translated as demon when the original; Aramaic was translated into greek

Naphtali Jones · 12-17-2006, 03:44 PM

Thanks for all the input. I can see that I've got a lot of reading to do on the subject. The problem is that I am dealing with fundamentalist christians who want to believe that the bible is without conflict. If the word demon is used even once in the O.T. I won't be able to convince them that it is still a different concept than what we see in the N.T.

I think my strategy will have to be concentrating on explaining the evolution of belief in Satan and then extend that to modern ideas about demons. The people (family actually) that I am writing for believe that there are actual demons all around us, fighting angels and plotting our downfall. In their minds everything that happens is a result of this conflict between Good and Evil.

dzim77 · 12-17-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali Jones

I know that they are a big part of the New Testament, but I want to argue that they are not part of the Old Testament,

You will probably want to look into the idea that 'false gods' were actually demons... stated in the following verses.

Quote:

They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—
gods they had not known,
gods that recently appeared,
gods your fathers did not fear.
-Deut 32:17

Quote:

They worshiped their idols,
which became a snare to them.
They sacrificed their sons
and their daughters to demons.
-Psalm 106:36-37

Malachi151 · 12-17-2006, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Naphtali Jones

Thanks for all the input. I can see that I've got a lot of reading to do on the subject. The problem is that I am dealing with fundamentalist christians who want to believe that the bible is without conflict. If the word demon is used even once in the O.T. I won't be able to convince them that it is still a different concept than what we see in the N.T.

I think my strategy will have to be concentrating on explaining the evolution of belief in Satan and then extend that to modern ideas about demons. The people (family actually) that I am writing for believe that there are actual demons all around us, fighting angels and plotting our downfall. In their minds everything that happens is a result of this conflict between Good and Evil.

The word "devil" is not in the OT at all.

John Kesler · 12-17-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

The word "devil" is not in the OT at all.

But the word Satan is (as is devils/demons), and the NT equates Satan with "the devil," so the fact that a particular title doesn't appear is not a compelling argument. As an aside, the Douay-Rheims Bible does contain the word "devil" in the OT.

Naphtali Jones · 12-18-2006, 12:45 PM

Satan does appear in the OT but only rarely, and mostly after the time of the Persian captivity. His personality and role are very different than that of the NT Satan. I think I can build a convincing argument that belief in Satan evolved gradually over time.

I could probably do the same with demons, but it would be a lot more complicated and my audience of fundamentalists would probably tune it out. For an argument to be persuasive to people who really don't want to be persuaded, it has to be simple and powerful.

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12-17-2006, 08:27 AM	#11
Vicar Philip Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cozy little chapel of me own Posts: 1,162	Napthali, I think you'll get some interesting insights from our Biblical History forum. Zap! VP

12-17-2006, 09:40 AM	#12
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	The Origin of Satan (Paperback) by Elaine Pagels (or via: amazon.co.uk)

12-17-2006, 12:51 PM	#14
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	I recommend that you read through some of my material here: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar..._evolution.htm Particularly: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...stic_Worldview http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...nst_Naturalism

12-17-2006, 03:44 PM	#16
Naphtali Jones Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ross River,Yukon Posts: 166	Thanks for all the input. I can see that I've got a lot of reading to do on the subject. The problem is that I am dealing with fundamentalist christians who want to believe that the bible is without conflict. If the word demon is used even once in the O.T. I won't be able to convince them that it is still a different concept than what we see in the N.T. I think my strategy will have to be concentrating on explaining the evolution of belief in Satan and then extend that to modern ideas about demons. The people (family actually) that I am writing for believe that there are actual demons all around us, fighting angels and plotting our downfall. In their minds everything that happens is a result of this conflict between Good and Evil.

12-18-2006, 12:45 PM	#20
Naphtali Jones Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Ross River,Yukon Posts: 166	Satan does appear in the OT but only rarely, and mostly after the time of the Persian captivity. His personality and role are very different than that of the NT Satan. I think I can build a convincing argument that belief in Satan evolved gradually over time. I could probably do the same with demons, but it would be a lot more complicated and my audience of fundamentalists would probably tune it out. For an argument to be persuasive to people who really don't want to be persuaded, it has to be simple and powerful.

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