Naphtali Jones

Hi everyone! I started a blog recently http://www.primordial-blog.blogspot.com/ and I am planning on doing a series of articles explaining to my readers why demons don't exist. My extended family are the main readers of this blog and they are all evangelical christians. I've found it is a great, non-threatening way to explain my viewpoints to them without getting into arguments.

Anyways, I plan to start by questioning how demons could possibly operate. Do they use telepathy or whisper thoughts directly into your ear? That sort of thing. The next argument I want to make is to explain that demons are not truly biblical. I know that they are a big part of the New Testament, but I want to argue that they are not part of the Old Testament, that the idea of demons originated in Persia and Greece and that they were incorporated into New Testament belief. I will mention the Greek belief in daemons and go into detail about the Book of Enoch which mentions the fallen angels. I also plan to quote from Isaiah 44

16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."

17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
"Save me; you are my god."

These verses are very rational. Idols are just useless hunks of wood.There is no mention of demonic influence here.

Any thoughts or suggestions? Am I missing anything?

couch_sloth

Go for it. You might actually make an impact on some evangelicals.

But
The problem, as I see it, is that you are trying to convince people who believe that the existence of God, souls, and the afterlife are a given.
So why then should they have a problem with believing in demons?

Much of the NT is not supported by the OT. In fact Jesus's whole nature (and mission) is not supported by the OT. e.g. Jesus being fathered by a god is more Greco/roman in nature than OT.

xaxxat

I think you might find the Solomon - Asmodai stories interesting...

Naphtali Jones

Believe me I know! I've been chipping away for a few years now and it usually comes down to the response: "What you say is logical and rational, but we just know that we are right". The reason I like doing the blog so much is that I write bettter than I talk and they are able to digest it at their own speed without feeling forced to come up with some defense or dismiss it. Some of the stuff they believe is just insane (I know because I used to believe it all too).

Tell me more xaxxat. I'm not sure what you are talking about but you've got my curiosity.

sharon45

There is mention about evil spirits in the OT.

Judges 9:23

God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the citizens of Shechem, who acted treacherously against Abimelech.

1 Samuel 16:14-23

14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
16 Let our lord command his servants here to search for someone who can play the harp. He will play when the evil spirit from God comes upon you, and you will feel better."

17 So Saul said to his attendants, "Find someone who plays well and bring him to me."

18 One of the servants answered, "I have seen a son of Jesse of Bethlehem who knows how to play the harp. He is a brave man and a warrior. He speaks well and is a fine-looking man. And the LORD is with him."

19 Then Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said, "Send me your son David, who is with the sheep."
20 So Jesse took a donkey loaded with bread, a skin of wine and a young goat and sent them with his son David to Saul.

21 David came to Saul and entered his service. Saul liked him very much, and David became one of his armor-bearers.
22 Then Saul sent word to Jesse, saying, "Allow David to remain in my service, for I am pleased with him."

23 Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take his harp and play. Then relief would come to Saul; he would feel better, and the evil spirit would leave him.

1 Samuel 18:10-11

10 The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand
11 and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice.

Naphtali Jones

Interesting that the evil spirit is sent by God in this story. Kind of like the Angel of Death in Exodus. And I seem to remember another episode where God puts a lying spirit in the mouth of one of the prophets to trick someone.

xaxxat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asmodai

Naphtali Jones

Interesting. This Asmodai character seems to have been invented during the Persian captivity. Part of my argument is that the Hebrew belief in demons arose during this time. The mention of evil spirits sets me back a bit, but these seem different than the demons described in the New Testament. For one thing they are commanded by God, not Satan.

Murray

Naphtali Jones,

You might want to rethink the theory that the NT presents a different view of idolatry than the OT does. Specifically review the passages in which Paul discusses the question of eating meat offered to idols (compare 1 Cor 8:4 to 1 Cor 10:19-20). He maintains that the idol is nothing, but that demons are still involved in the act of idolatry. This is not different from the Old Testament. Notice the way in which the Psalmist links demons and idolatry (Psalm 106:36-38):

“They worshiped their idols, which became a snare to them. They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons. They shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, and the land was desecrated by their blood.”

Consider also Deuteroneomy 32:16-17:

“They made him jealous with their foreign gods and angered him with their detestable idols. They sacrificed to demons, which are not God—gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.”

Naphtali Jones

I have to admit. You've got me on that one. I never noticed those references before. I'll have to rethink my theory, unless someone out there has a good explanation. It's times like these I wish I could read ancient Hebrew.

The passages in question almost seem to be referring to other gods rather than the minions of Satan described in the N.T. I'm wondering if the translators used the word "demon" appropriately in these cases? Anyone knowledgeable out there?

Or perhaps I was just wrong and the Israelites believed in demons all along.