FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Yesterday at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-08-2008, 11:20 AM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 2,608
Default Why did Jesus deceive the multitudes?

Taken from Matthew 13:10-12 KJV.

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

Does this present initiation rights to a group of students whose right it was to know the mysteries of the kingdom but all others were excluded from it?

Why would the 12 be special and not the other Jewish citizens? Does this show how the priesthood was formed and maybe in a conspiracy to overthrow the Pharisees?
storytime is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 11:27 AM   #2
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,679
Default

He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.
No Robots is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 12:30 PM   #3
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Pale Blue Dot
Posts: 463
Default

I believe a christian would respond that those who really wanted 'truth' could discern the true meaning of what he was saying. Since too many people just wanted to "have their ears tickled" or see a miracle. It was supposedly his way of weeding out the flakes. A christian wouldn't view that as deciet.
Darklighter is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 12:49 PM   #4
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Arizona
Posts: 1,808
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.

The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.
Minimalist is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 12:55 PM   #5
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,679
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minimalist View Post
The 'disciples' strike me as the Greek Chrorus. Their function was to stand there and be amazed over and over at their boss' magic tricks. You'd think after a while they start to catch on that he could do this stuff but...no. They are always surprised or amazed.
They were very simple folk, credulous and superstitious, who were bound to this man by a love that they could not understand.
No Robots is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 02:08 PM   #6
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.
But, being god, wouldn't he know who he was talking to and what they could comprehend?
Dogfish is offline  
Old 01-08-2008, 02:19 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 5,679
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfish View Post
But, being god, wouldn't he know who he was talking to and what they could comprehend?
I can't figure out if you are a fundy or if you're accusing me of being one.
No Robots is offline  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:11 AM   #8
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indianapolis
Posts: 2,366
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfish View Post
But, being god, wouldn't he know who he was talking to and what they could comprehend?
I can't figure out if you are a fundy or if you're accusing me of being one.
Down, boy! It was just a question.
Dogfish is offline  
Old 01-09-2008, 05:49 AM   #9
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Tacoma, WA
Posts: 171
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by No Robots View Post
He tried to communicate with people on their own level. He was frequently dissatisfied with the disciples' low level of comprehension.
Well, unless they possess an inherently refined intellect, I wouldn't expect a bunch of illiterate field workers and fishermen to be quick on the uptake with stories that university-educated philosophers and theologians can't fully explain...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogfish View Post
But, being god, wouldn't he know who he was talking to and what they could comprehend?
Isn't that the point? Not god, just a guy, speaking to a bunch of illiterate field hands who, not knowing any better, bought whatever he said because he sounded like he really knew what he was talking about...

Thoughts?
Matt Stone is offline  
Old 01-09-2008, 06:14 AM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Colorado
Posts: 8,674
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by storytime View Post
Taken from Matthew 13:10-12 KJV.

"And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given."

Does this present initiation rights to a group of students whose right it was to know the mysteries of the kingdom but all others were excluded from it?

Why would the 12 be special and not the other Jewish citizens? Does this show how the priesthood was formed and maybe in a conspiracy to overthrow the Pharisees?
Because this theme is borrowed from the Gospel of Mark, which takes the theme from the Jewish scriptures as well as Pauline teaching:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/ar...ospel_mark.htm

Quote:
The Purpose of the Parables
Mark 4:
10 When he was alone, those who were around him along with the twelve asked him about the parables. 11 And he said to them, 'To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but for those outside, everything comes in parables; 12 in order that
"they may indeed look, but not perceive,
and may indeed listen, but not understand;
so that they may not turn again and be forgiven."'


13 And he said to them, 'Do you not understand this parable? Then how will you understand all the parables? 14 The sower sows the word.
This again contains parallels with the Pauline works, and in an interesting way. Not only does this passage reflect the same ideas that are found in the Pauline works, but it also quotes the same passage that is quoted in Romans. Paul also referred to the kingdom of God, and Jesus, as a mystery.
Colossians 1:
25 I became its servant according to God's commission that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery that has been hidden throughout the ages and generations but has now been revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
There are many passages such as this one in the Pauline epistles that talk about secret revealed mysteries to a select group of people.

Mark 4:12 refers to Isaiah 6:9-10, which is also referenced by Paul in Romans 11.
Romans 11:
1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 'Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars; I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.' 4 But what is the divine reply to him? 'I have kept for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.' 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,
'God gave them a sluggish spirit,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.'

9 And David says,
'Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling-block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and keep their backs for ever bent.'
Here both the Gospel of Mark and the works of Paul are in agreement, that Israel is condemned, but that a few select Jews, "the elect", were on the right track. Both Paul and Gospel of Mark here refer to Isaiah 6, which talks about destruction coming to those who do not understand.
Isaiah 6:
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?' And I said, 'Here am I; send me!' 9 And he said, 'Go and say to this people:
"Keep listening, but do not comprehend;
keep looking, but do not understand."
10 Make the mind of this people dull,
and stop their ears,
and shut their eyes,
so that they may not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and comprehend with their minds,
and turn and be healed.'

11 Then I said, 'How long, O Lord?' And he said:
'Until cities lie waste
without inhabitant,
and houses without people,
and the land is utterly desolate;
Malachi151 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:15 AM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.