FRDB Archives

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.


Go Back   FRDB Archives > Archives > Religion (Closed) > Biblical Criticism & History
Welcome, Peter Kirby.
You last visited: Today at 03:12 PM

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-12-2010, 05:52 AM   #1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: California
Posts: 748
Default When does Yahweh first appear in the historical record?

I'm assuming that the oldest religions for which we have any records are the ones found in Egypt and Sumer. Does anybody know when the name Yahweh first enters the historical record? I'm assuming somewhere in the early 1st millenium but I can't find any evidence for that. And is that reference found in Hebrew literature or perhaps in earlier Canaanite literature?

Thanks
Roland is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 07:31 AM   #2
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: About 120 miles away from aa5874
Posts: 268
Default

Research in comparative mythology shows a linguistic correlation between Levantine Yaw and monotheistic Yahweh, suggesting that the god may in some manner be the predecessor in the sense of an evolving religion of Yahweh. The research involves identifying Yaw as an etymological cognate to Yahweh.[2] Religious scholars such as Johannes De Moor have established that Yaw and Yahweh are in fact derivatives of the same Semitic appellation.

Although the theological differences between the polytheism of the larger Levantine culture and the evolving monotheism of the Old Testament are noteworthy, the concept of Yaw helps explain some obscure passages. For example, a fragment in Deuteronomy 32.8-9 as it reads in the Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls,[6] provides a special status to the cognate deity Yahweh.[7]

When the Most High (`Elyon) allotted peoples for inheritance,
When He divided up the sons of man,
He fixed the boundaries for peoples,
According to the number of the sons of El[8]
But Yahweh’s portion is his people,
Jacob His own inheritance.[9]

The newer Masoretic manuscripts read "sons of Israel" in place of "sons of El," to conform to later Judaic theology. These manuscripts predate the oldest Masoretic texts by about 700 years.[10] The older reading implicates an original polytheist context at the birth of Judaism. Within this framework, humanity was divided into seventy peoples, each with its own patron god.[11]

The passage as it reads here and in the Septuagint clearly indicates that Yahweh was one deity among many and was lower in status than El the Most High, suggesting that his rise to supremacy was a later innovation.

Another passage, Psalm 82, confirms Yahweh's status as exceptional within a pantheon as an accuser of the divine brethren. In LXX, v. 1 reads: "God stands in the assembly of gods; and in the midst of them will judge gods;" the NRSV also reflects this older reading. Mark S. Smith of New York University writes, "Psalm 82 also presents the god El presiding in a divine assembly at which Yahweh stands up and makes his accusation against the other gods. Here the text shows the older religious worldview which the passage is denouncing."[12]

Other hard data support the linguistic identification of Yahweh with Yaw, the ophidian deity of the sea. Jewish archaeologist Richard Freund notes that a Judean patera (liturgical incense shovel) discovered by Yigal Yadin in the Cave of Letters depicts the Greek goddess Thetis (Levantine Asherah, Yaw's consort), the mother of the oceanic nereids, as does the seven-headed Menorah that is depicted on the Arch of Titus in Rome.[13] On the arch, the Menorah's base has six panels, one displays two cherubim with eagle's wings facing each other over the cover (arc) of the covenant, and others display each a sea-dragon, sea-horses or fish (minus the spines which cause the dragon to choke).[14]

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Yaw-(god)
jgreen44 is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:01 AM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 1,037
Default

The late Henry O. Thompson, writing for The Anchor Bible Dictionary, volume VI, pp. 1011-1012, writes:

Quote:
The date and origin of the name has long been debated. Its earliest appearances are in the Song of Deborah (Judges 5; which has been dated to the 11th century B.C.), on the Mesha Stele (9th century...), in an ostracon from the Kuntillet 'Ajrud (8th century..), and in the Arad and lachish Letters (6th century...).

To move outside of the Levant, we find Egyptian name lists which include a Syrian site, Ya-h-wa (No. 97), which is identical to Yawheh. A Ramses II (1304-1237 B.C.) list is found in the Nubian temple in 'Amarah West with six names (Nos. 93-98) following the designation "Bedouin area." Nos. 96-98 have been found at Soleb in Nubia on an Amon temple of Amenhotep III (1417-1379). No. 93, Sa-'ra-r, has been identified with Seir (Edom) and related to the biblical references (Deut 33:2) which associate Yahweh with Seir and Paran. This could be taken as evidence the name was known in Edom or Midianite ca. 1400 B.C...
John Kesler is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:03 AM   #4
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The recesses of Zaphon
Posts: 969
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Kesler View Post
The late Henry O. Thompson, writing for The Anchor Bible Dictionary, volume VI, pp. 1011-1012, writes:

Quote:
The date and origin of the name has long been debated. Its earliest appearances are in the Song of Deborah (Judges 5; which has been dated to the 11th century B.C.), on the Mesha Stele (9th century...), in an ostracon from the Kuntillet 'Ajrud (8th century..), and in the Arad and lachish Letters (6th century...).

To move outside of the Levant, we find Egyptian name lists which include a Syrian site, Ya-h-wa (No. 97), which is identical to Yawheh. A Ramses II (1304-1237 B.C.) list is found in the Nubian temple in 'Amarah West with six names (Nos. 93-98) following the designation "Bedouin area." Nos. 96-98 have been found at Soleb in Nubia on an Amon temple of Amenhotep III (1417-1379). No. 93, Sa-'ra-r, has been identified with Seir (Edom) and related to the biblical references (Deut 33:2) which associate Yahweh with Seir and Paran. This could be taken as evidence the name was known in Edom or Midianite ca. 1400 B.C...
Best answer.

It’s not going to get any better than that.

Or at least it’s very unlikely.
Loomis is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:06 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The recesses of Zaphon
Posts: 969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jgreen44 View Post

The passage as it reads here and in the Septuagint clearly indicates that Yahweh was one deity among many and was lower in status than El the Most High, suggesting that his rise to supremacy was a later innovation.
Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe it just means that some authors were compelled to join two different gods from two different traditions – and ended up doing so in incompatible ways.

I think it’s a mistake to treat the OT like it comes from a single monolithic tradition that evolved sequentially over time. Instead, we might want to consider the possibility that it reflects several parallel overlapping traditions that occasionally co-existed.
Loomis is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 01:51 PM   #6
Regular Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: New York State
Posts: 440
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loomis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jgreen44 View Post

The passage as it reads here and in the Septuagint clearly indicates that Yahweh was one deity among many and was lower in status than El the Most High, suggesting that his rise to supremacy was a later innovation.
Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe it just means that some authors were compelled to join two different gods from two different traditions – and ended up doing so in incompatible ways.

I think it’s a mistake to treat the OT like it comes from a single monolithic tradition that evolved sequentially over time. Instead, we might want to consider the possibility that it reflects several parallel overlapping traditions that occasionally co-existed.
New best answer.
rob117 is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 02:06 PM   #7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Detroit Metro
Posts: 705
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rob117 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loomis View Post
Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe it just means that some authors were compelled to join two different gods from two different traditions – and ended up doing so in incompatible ways.

I think it’s a mistake to treat the OT like it comes from a single monolithic tradition that evolved sequentially over time. Instead, we might want to consider the possibility that it reflects several parallel overlapping traditions that occasionally co-existed.
New best answer.
Evolution doesn't preclude revolution. I see no reason why various non-overlapping source materials couldn't have been deliberately redacted for political purposes.
Back Again is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 10:48 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: California
Posts: 748
Default

Thanks, everyone, for your helpful responses. How do those who advocate the position that the Hebrew religion was always monotheistic deal with Deut 32:8-9? That all but screams out polytheism. The changes made to it in the Masoretic text render a perfectly sensible and comprehensible passage virtually meaningless.
Roland is offline  
Old 01-12-2010, 11:55 PM   #9
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The recesses of Zaphon
Posts: 969
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post

How do those who advocate the position that the Hebrew religion was always monotheistic deal with Deut 32:8-9?
Meet Michael Heiser (a Christian apologist).

Are Yahweh and El Distinct Deities In Deut. 32:8-9 and Psalm 82?

Heiser argues that since Israel isn’t listed in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10 that Yahweh/God must have kept the tribe of Jacob (Israel) for himself.

Here’s his translation:
Quote:
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
Notice his but. He pulled it out of his ass.
Loomis is offline  
Old 01-13-2010, 08:08 AM   #10
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Hillsborough, NJ
Posts: 3,551
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loomis View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post

How do those who advocate the position that the Hebrew religion was always monotheistic deal with Deut 32:8-9?
Meet Michael Heiser (a Christian apologist).

Are Yahweh and El Distinct Deities In Deut. 32:8-9 and Psalm 82?

Heiser argues that since Israel isn’t listed in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10 that Yahweh/God must have kept the tribe of Jacob (Israel) for himself.

Here’s his translation:
Quote:
When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God. But the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted heritage.
Notice his but. He pulled it out of his ass.
His translation of "ki", pronounced like key, is not terrible. When I took modern hebrew this means "because." Most translations have it as "for."

I think you are right though, he seems to be using the word in a sense that was not intended.
semiopen is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:58 PM.

Top

This custom BB emulates vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.