Freethought & Rationalism Archive

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Free Will

Free Will doesn't apply to God, who ordered and approved of the slavery.
If Free Will excuses slavery why doesn't it excuse murder?

Why did Mohammed in the name of Allah behead, and raped women in the name of Allah....will you defend your God?

How can you attack the God of Israel and not your own.....some of us would surely like to hear your reasons. Will you continue to be silent about this? Are you really a follower of Allah or have you renounced your faith?

Sheshonq · 12-31-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Nope. they had a peace treaty with Gibeon. Their deaths were avenged not because they were considered valuable, but because there was a standing peace treaty (and an oath) that they would not be harmed by the Israelites.

JOS 9:18 And the children of Israel smote them not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes.
JOS 9:19 But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.
JOS 9:20 This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them.
JOS 9:21 And the princes said unto them, Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water unto all the congregation; as the princes had promised them.
JOS 9:22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?
JOS 9:23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

No it doesn't. It's a one-time event specific to the Gibeonites, and stems from the peace treaty that indicated no harm would come to them at the hands of the Israelites. It is not part of the Hebrew law concerning the treatment of slaves.

SA2 21:2 And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)
SA2 21:3 Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?
As usual, the skeptics know more about the bible than the christians do. :rolling:

No you haven't. You fail again, sugarhitman. But you're used to that by now.

But why should a corrupt God honor a peace treaty between Jews and Bondmen?

God? According to the story, it was men honoring a treaty.

Quote:

I mean they are non hebrews and bondmen so why are the Jews fearful of doing them harm if God was so "bias" or hateful of non Jews.

By the time this event (allegedly) happened, the Gibeonites were fully intergrated into society and a failure to avenge them would have backfired. There is a common mideastern cultural element of the safesworn visitor; the person who comes to a village or town and is granted security by virtue of the word of the headman. Breaking that social norm would have been a huge breach of custom, and opened the door to tribal retribution.

However, the majority of the OT is just a made-up national history to give the Jews a common national mythology anyhow.

I notice that you again chickened out:

if slavery was immoral, then why was slavery even permitted in the first place?

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

No, just you quoting scriptures and running from answering the question.

if slavery was immoral, then why was slavery even permitted in the first place?

Nope. they had a peace treaty with Gibeon. Their deaths were avenged not because they were considered valuable, but because there was a standing peace treaty (and an oath) that they would not be harmed by the Israelites.

JOS 9:18 And the children of Israel smote them not, because the princes of the congregation had sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes.
JOS 9:19 But all the princes said unto all the congregation, We have sworn unto them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.
JOS 9:20 This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them.
JOS 9:21 And the princes said unto them, Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood and drawers of water unto all the congregation; as the princes had promised them.
JOS 9:22 And Joshua called for them, and he spake unto them, saying, Wherefore have ye beguiled us, saying, We are very far from you; when ye dwell among us?
JOS 9:23 Now therefore ye are cursed, and there shall none of you be freed from being bondmen, and hewers of wood and drawers of water for the house of my God.

No it doesn't. It's a one-time event specific to the Gibeonites, and stems from the peace treaty that indicated no harm would come to them at the hands of the Israelites. It is not part of the Hebrew law concerning the treatment of slaves.

SA2 21:2 And the king called the Gibeonites, and said unto them; (now the Gibeonites were not of the children of Israel, but of the remnant of the Amorites; and the children of Israel had sworn unto them: and Saul sought to slay them in his zeal to the children of Israel and Judah.)
SA2 21:3 Wherefore David said unto the Gibeonites, What shall I do for you? and wherewith shall I make the atonement, that ye may bless the inheritance of the LORD?

As usual, the skeptics know more about the bible than the christians do. :rolling:

No you haven't. You fail again, sugarhitman. But you're used to that by now.

But why should a corrupt God honor a peace treaty between Jews and Bondmen? I mean they are non hebrews and bondmen so why are the Jews fearful of doing them harm if God was so "bias" or hateful of non Jews. And why were they given over to non hebrews for judgement? And the fact remains they were bondmen.

What good is a covanant of Peace with Canaanites if God hates them? (I cant wait to hear this).

Also why are you not defending Allah? Your brother syhed is all alone defending your god. Yeah, i have got you all figured out....and know where you stand.

this is a Biblical Criticism & History forum you may wish to check it out before you post stupid nonsense like you have been. muslims have equal right to critize in the Biblical Criticism & History forum. if you wish to debate the Q'ran i am sure you can do so in the other supplied forum.

Nice to see you still have not answered
if slavery was immoral, then why was slavery even permitted in the first place?

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

We are slaves. without the greenback you don't have shelter, food or clothing.
You know when you sign your name on those CONTRACTS at those various workplaces you become a slave.

Everyone serves sombody else.

Nice try no i am not.
No one gets to keep my children
No one gets to keep my wife
no one gets to beet me until i cant get up for two days
I can hit back
I sign a contract but by no means am i owned by the bank who carries the note our current state of that industry should be sign of that being nothing more than shtman nonsense.
I work because i choose to. it is easier than steeling or trying to live an agrairian life based on baser needs. Nice try but i have a choice of not going to work.
Do not equate working to ownership. To do so is simplistic and shows your inability to comprehend the simplest of statements.

You also did not answer anything. So try again?

Since slavery was so nice and is supported by the bible then would you support it today in order to fend off hunger and destitution? After all it is rehablitation and people could get trades according to the assertions in this thread.
So is the bible the inspired word of god to be followed without critic or just a bunch of suggestions from a god that was no better than the surrounding gods who by the way never declared him to be the one true god? Considering your gods fear that others would turn away so quickly from him sounds like he was the erkel of gods in that area and nobody took him all that serious ( amongst the other gods anyways).

yet without the greenback both you and your wife and kids will be out on the streets. Then you will be a welfare recipient (slave of the state) or forced into the wilderness (or streets).

Everyone serves someone this is an inescapable truth.

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheshonq

Free Will doesn't apply to God, who ordered and approved of the slavery.
If Free Will excuses slavery why doesn't it excuse murder?

Why did Mohammed in the name of Allah behead, and raped women in the name of Allah....will you defend your God?

How can you attack the God of Israel and not your own.....some of us would surely like to hear your reasons. Will you continue to be silent about this? Are you really a follower of Allah or have you renounced your faith?

Shesong actually understands what forum she is in you do not. here is a hint Biblical Criticism & History

Sheshonq · 12-31-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

There were many instances when Moses was almost killed by the Israelites

Bumping this for sugarhitman - who made this claim and hasn't supported it yet.

Cite those "many instances".

WVIncagold · 12-31-2008, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Nice try no i am not.
No one gets to keep my children
No one gets to keep my wife
no one gets to beet me until i cant get up for two days
I can hit back
I sign a contract but by no means am i owned by the bank who carries the note our current state of that industry should be sign of that being nothing more than shtman nonsense.
I work because i choose to. it is easier than steeling or trying to live an agrairian life based on baser needs. Nice try but i have a choice of not going to work.
Do not equate working to ownership. To do so is simplistic and shows your inability to comprehend the simplest of statements.

You also did not answer anything. So try again?

Since slavery was so nice and is supported by the bible then would you support it today in order to fend off hunger and destitution? After all it is rehablitation and people could get trades according to the assertions in this thread.
So is the bible the inspired word of god to be followed without critic or just a bunch of suggestions from a god that was no better than the surrounding gods who by the way never declared him to be the one true god? Considering your gods fear that others would turn away so quickly from him sounds like he was the erkel of gods in that area and nobody took him all that serious ( amongst the other gods anyways).

yet without the greenback both you and your wife and kids will be out on the streets. Then you will be a welfare recipient (slave of the state) or forced into the wilderness (or streets).

Everyone serves someone this is an inescapable truth.

True the Major big difference you seam incapable to grasp is I have a choice. sure there may be negative repercusions but i have a choice. slaves do not!
Again want to answer
Since slavery was so nice and is supported by the bible then would you support it today in order to fend off hunger and destitution? After all it is rehablitation and people could get trades according to the assertions in this thread.
So is the bible the inspired word of god to be followed without critic or just a bunch of suggestions from a god that was no better than the surrounding gods who by the way never declared him to be the one true god? Considering your gods fear that others would turn away so quickly from him sounds like he was the erkel of gods in that area and nobody took him all that serious ( amongst the other gods anyways).
or are you going to keep making us repost continually those things you refuse to answer because your cognitive dissonance causes you to squirm like a worm on a hot plate?

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

But why should a corrupt God honor a peace treaty between Jews and Bondmen? I mean they are non hebrews and bondmen so why are the Jews fearful of doing them harm if God was so "bias" or hateful of non Jews. And why were they given over to non hebrews for judgement? And the fact remains they were bondmen.

What good is a covanant of Peace with Canaanites if God hates them? (I cant wait to hear this).

Also why are you not defending Allah? Your brother syhed is all alone defending your god. Yeah, i have got you all figured out....and know where you stand.

this is a Biblical Criticism & History forum you may wish to check it out before you post stupid nonsense like you have been. muslims have equal right to critize in the Biblical Criticism & History forum. if you wish to debate the Q'ran i am sure you can do so in the other supplied forum.

Nice to see you still have not answered
if slavery was immoral, then why was slavery even permitted in the first place?

I have already answered that stupid question.

A Muslim a follower of the bloody Mohammed is not in a position to attack the God of Israel.....this is tantamount to a Satanist attacking Jesus.

And thats on the real.

sugarhitman · 12-31-2008, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WVIncagold

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

yet without the greenback both you and your wife and kids will be out on the streets. Then you will be a welfare recipient (slave of the state) or forced into the wilderness (or streets).

Everyone serves someone this is an inescapable truth.

True the Major big diffrence you seam incapable to grasp is I have a choice. sure there may be negative repercusions but i have a choice. slaves do not!
Again want to answer
Since slavery was so nice and is supported by the bible then would you support it today in order to fend off hunger and destitution? After all it is rehablitation and people could get trades according to the assertions in this thread.
So is the bible the inspired word of god to be followed without critic or just a bunch of suggestions from a god that was no better than the surrounding gods who by the way never declared him to be the one true god? Considering your gods fear that others would turn away so quickly from him sounds like he was the erkel of gods in that area and nobody took him all that serious ( amongst the other gods anyways).
or are you going to keep making us repost continually those things you refuse to answer because your cognitive dissonance causes you to squirm like a worm on a hot plate?

"you have a choice" so did those who sold themselves and their family to survive.

Johnny Skeptic · 12-31-2008, 11:06 AM

Since the Bible is not a trustworthy source of information, we cannot be reasonably certain how Old Testament Hebrews treated their slaves. Copies of copies of ancient writings about Old Testament slavery do not prove anything about Old Testament slavery. The texts might have been altered in order to make Hebrews look good. Even if the texts were not altered, that still would not tell us how Hebrews actually treated their Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves.

What the Bible says happened is one issue. What actually happened is another issue entirely. The same goes for many of claims that the Bible makes. No supernatural claim that the Bible makes can be reasonably verified by history or science.

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12-31-2008, 11:06 AM	#670
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Since the Bible is not a trustworthy source of information, we cannot be reasonably certain how Old Testament Hebrews treated their slaves. Copies of copies of ancient writings about Old Testament slavery do not prove anything about Old Testament slavery. The texts might have been altered in order to make Hebrews look good. Even if the texts were not altered, that still would not tell us how Hebrews actually treated their Hebrew and non-Hebrew slaves. What the Bible says happened is one issue. What actually happened is another issue entirely. The same goes for many of claims that the Bible makes. No supernatural claim that the Bible makes can be reasonably verified by history or science.

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