Baidarka

River - "...Ishaq 587 is not of the Quran. Islam does not allow mutilation of any kind."

Excuse me. Ok, I'll just stick to the Quran

Qur’an 8:67 “It is not fitting for any prophet to have prisoners until he has made a great slaughtered in the land.�?
Qur’an 8:12 “

Qur’an 9:5

Pretty damn bloody. It's a shame that the Jewish martyr who put an end to him failed to end his bloody madness.

River

1) I don't have all day to go over Islamic history with you, for I am somewhat busy reviewing for the USMLE Step 1. However, lets look at this quote. It says clearly " using every strategem of war" . As Muslims, we have to abide by certain standards of war , or "the art of war"....you may say. Preparing for war is necessary only for self-defense....Muhammad's "new Islamic Ummat ( community)" was on the brink of extinction, not once but several times. When peaceful means fails, and the Opposition ( i.e in this case the Meccans) are slaying your brothers/sisters and kin, violating your right of speech and freedom of religion, raping your wives and children.....can you simply stand there and "turn the other cheek"...impossible, we as humans must defend our natural right to defend ourselfves and co-exist. It is a Law governed by nature.....

2) Under conditions of war, Islam prohibits deforestation, burning, mutilation, women and children can not be killed, whatsoever. messengers/monks of other religions must be respected as well. You can not initiate the war....

3) I quoted MAHATMA GANDHI , A ICON/SYMBOL OF PEACE...a true Pacifict ....Mahatma Gandhi who is Hindu....also believes in the Peaceful nature and message of the Prophet. ....that says alot, my friend...


---River

River

"History makes it clear however, that the legend of fanatical Muslims sweeping through the world and forcing Islam at the point of the sword upon conquered races is one of the most fantastically absurd myths that historians have ever repeated." --De Lacy O'Leary, ISLAM AT THE CROSSROADS, London, 1923, p. 8.




• “The teachings of Islam can fail under no circumstances. With all our systems of culture and civilization, we can not go beyond Islam and, as a matter of fact, no human mind can go beyond the Q’uran. (Johann Goethe, cited in Sir Henry Elliot’s Letters of Johann Goethe, 1865.)

premjan

I think claiming that Islam is a nonviolent religion would be going a bit too far. Undoubtedly there are rules for engaging in conflict. In a violent world, Islam may be a realistic compromise. Buddhism, on the other hand, is maybe a little too peaceful. Look at Tibet.

Baidarka

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.�?
Qur’an 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission.�?
Qur’an 8:39 “Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah.�?
Qur’an 8:39 “So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world).�?
Qur’an 9:14 “Fight them and Allah will punish them by your hands, lay them low, and cover them with shame. He will help you over them.�?
Qur’an 8:65 “O Prophet, urge the faithful to fight. If there are twenty among you with determination they will vanquish two hundred; if there are a hundred then they will slaughter a thousand unbelievers, for the infidels are a people devoid of understanding.�?
Qur’an 9:123 “Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you.�?
Qur’an 47:4 “When you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle (fighting Jihad in Allah’s Cause), smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom (them based upon what benefits Islam) until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by Allah to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam.�?
Qur’an 8:12 “I shall terrorize the infidels. So wound their bodies and incapacitate them because they oppose Allah and His Apostle.�?
Qur’an 8:57 “If you gain mastery over them in battle, inflict such a defeat as would terrorize them, so that they would learn a lesson and be warned.�?
Qur’an 7:3 “Little do you remember My warning. How many towns have We destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them.�?Qur’an 33:26 “Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before.�?

This is how the Prophet repaid the people who sheltered him when he needed their help.

Qur’an 59:2 “It was Allah who drove the [Jewish] People of the Book from their homes and into exile. They refused to believe and imagined that their strongholds would protect them against Allah. But Allah came at them from where they did not suspect, and filled their hearts with terror. Their homes were destroyed. So learn a lesson, O men who have eyes. This is My warning…they shall taste the torment of Fire.�?
Qur’an 33:60 “Truly, if the Hypocrites stir up sedition, if the agitators in the City do not desist, We shall urge you to go against them and set you over them. Then they will not be able to stay as your neighbors for any length of time. They shall have a curse on them. Whenever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy—a fierce slaughter—murdered, a horrible murdering.�?

These are only a few quotes there are many more. Most of this does not sound like self defence and most of this does not sound very holy.

premjan

I don't think self-defence is historically the only reason for conflict in Islam. I believe Muhammad attacked rich people on grounds of his followers were poor and needed wealth. For that matter Chingis Khan didn't need any moralistic reasons for attacking people either, and he is still followed as a great spiritual leader in Mongolia.

Dar Ul Harb and Dar Ul Islam philosophies of the middle ages are definitely not self-defence, but more like perpetual war philosophies of the Communists.

River

-Baidarka

Since you are an expert on the Quran and its exegesis. And since you have a thorough understanding of the exoteric and esoteric aspects of the Holy Koran. Will you please, tell me if the preceding verses were stated in Medina ( Yathrib) or Mecca were they pre-hijra or post hijra (exodus). Also, can you tell me who was commanding the army at the time as well as the size of the army and its opposition. What were the roles of the Caliphs ( Ali, Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman). In terms of chronology were the verses in chapter 8 revealed before 9 or vice versa. Also can you tell me the name of the battles and treaties taking place in the verses that you've cited.

I would gladly appreciate this information, since as you know I am somewhat deficient in understanding.


---------River

River

Muhammad (pbuh) was no Robin Hood....


-River

P.S: His followers came from all socio-economic status's .

Baidarka

Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.�?
I make no claims to being an expert on the Quran or Islam.
But as a true disbeliever I take offence at the above quote.
I'm sure that you can weave a web of apologetics and explain away all the violent things that the Prophet said.
I don't need to be an expert to be chilled by his words.

River

Although, I clearly have no time to go through this, I've noticed some clear and blatant fabrications. Verses 33:26 and Verses 59:2 do NOT use the words "Jewish" or " Jews".

Either you or the website from which you may have cut and pasted has an obvious anti-muslim propaganda. Please be honest when posting verses of the Quran or any other Scripture for that matter.

If you want to take a look at some online translations of the Quran go to
www.ishwar.com
It doesn't, however have a Tafsir (commentary) and it is best to understand these verses within the framework of how/when it was Revealed.


-River