Freethought & Rationalism Archive

badger3k · 10-07-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Where is Mary listed in Jesus' bloodline in Luke 3?

The Matthew genealogy follows Joseph's line (Jesus' legal father), through David's son Solomon. Luke follows Mary's line (Jesus' blood mother), through David's son Nathan. They both arrive at David as the common ancestor so Jesus is covered in this regard from both side of his earthy parents.

Luke 3:31. "the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David."

Heli was Mary's Father.

Joseph son of Heli", in the English translation, simply reads, "...Joseph of Eli". The word 'son' before Heli, is not in the Greek text.

2 Samuel 21:8, says Michol had five sons. In reality, they were adopted sons of Merob. Jacob was the genetic father of Joseph. Heli, the father of Mary, was Joseph's father in law, his legal father.

Either way you slice it, Jesus comes from the seed of David. Spiritually through Joseph, and blood related through Mary.

Both Matthew and Luke make this very clear. Matthew uses Joseph's bloodline, meanwhile, Luke uses Mary's, which was quite uncommon in ancient days.

Luke makes it very clear that he refers to Joseph, not Mary. Mary is not mentioned at all. I know this is a common apologetic, but it has no, zero, basis. I'm sure someone else here can answer it better, but seriously, this has no traction. It's a desperation ploy to try to pin it on Mary. The authors of Matthew and Luke had different versions, or else they wrote it for different purposes.

(I had heard the idea tossed around that one of the geneologies had something to do with a Northern Messiah (IIRC) as opposed to the Davidic/Southern one, but I can't remember the details, and whether this supported that. Just an interesting possibility to toss out while we're on the subject.

This is off the biblegateway site, using the NIV (IIRC)

Quote:

23Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,
the son of Heli, 24the son of Matthat,
the son of Levi, the son of Melki,
the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,
25the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos,
the son of Nahum, the son of Esli,
the son of Naggai, ....

Where is Mary? Is it Mary of the Gaps argumentation? Even if we use "Joseph of Heli", the context is clear that we are talking about Joseph, not anyone else. There isn't any way around it except to appeal to what isn't there and hope no one notices.

Quote:

King James: 23And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,

New International Readers version: 23 Jesus was about 30 years old when he began his special work for God and others. It was thought that he was the son of Joseph.
Joseph was the son of Heli.

Young's Literal translation:
23And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

24the [son] of Eli, the [son] of Matthat,"

The context is a list of ancestors, through the male line. If you think to use the [son] of Eli to refer to Jesus grandfather through Mary, you're really stretching it, since if you read that, you have to wonder what the others are. Was Matthat really the father of Eli (Heli) or was he the father of ...who...Eli's wife? Someone unnamed but on the matrilineal line of descent?

That's just sad. Descent was traced, the bloodline, through the male and the male offspring.

Is there anywhere else that it is quoted that Heli/Eli was the father of Mary? One of the gospels, perhaps? Otherwise, you're pulling it out of your posterior.

badger3k · 10-07-2009, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Failte

Quote:

Luke 3:31. "the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David."

Heli was Mary's Father.

Joseph son of Heli", in the English translation, simply reads, "...Joseph of Eli". The word 'son' before Heli, is not in the Greek text.

Is 'son of' in front of the other names? Why not this one? How is that meaningful?

I have no background in the 'begats' sections of the bible (oy, they are boring) -- but this seems a bit of a stretch to me. Just because the names are the same doesn't mean it's the same person -- I've seen my own name in other people's family trees, and it's definitely not me.

What references do you have for this? I'm curious how it works, since the bible has generally been pretty dismissive of the mother in the whole string of things.

From Young's Literal Translation (here) they leave the [son] off, and it seems to be assumed through the wording (I'm not sure of the Greek, so I can't comment on that). The lack of [son] goes all the way back to YHWH.

badger3k · 10-07-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by badger3k

Although it really seems to refer to David's actual son (the "I will set up your seed" line), the "I will be his Father" bit reflects, IIRC, the idea of the King as God's son - the whole "son of god" bit that gets misused so much - it always refered to earthly humans blessed by god (IIRC) while the Son of Man is the spiritual guy, and "his throne shall be established forever" has clearly been false. I'm going to guess that the standard apologetic is to argue that there was no real time frame given, so that it can be used hundreds+ years later if needed to satisfy someone's theological ideas.

I think this is where it becomes difficult. Because no one seems to know if the messiah was one of David's Sons, or was it the 'seed of David', which could possibly point to Jesus? There are several different answers to this argument.

Well, if the 'Seed of David" does in fact be the correct meaning, then that means all of David's decendants are to treated by God as his own Son. Wasn't Jesus the Son of God?

Quote:

Edit to add: it also doesn't get around the fact that Jesus is not of the seed of Joseph, no matter how hard you slice it. Unless you are an adoptionist who believes that Jesus was born a normal man but became the Son of YHWH at his baptism?

Jesus is not Joseph's biological son. Or unless is Joseph is YHWH in the flesh?

This is why I believe it's spiritual.

I can see why you have to go the spiritual route, as it's the only one that works. Not sure if the early Christians would have gone that route, though. The idea that if David's descendants were treated as Sons of God, then since Jesus was the Son of God, that would make Jesus a descendant of David....the logic doesn't work. You can go the one way: David's descendants -> Sons of God, but not the other way Sons of God -> David's descendants. All of his descendants (well, just the men, they're the only ones who count) might be considered Sons of God (technically, they would only be so on their coronation, which in Jesus' case was apparently the baptism, though I think some have said it was the annointing with oil by Mary Magdeline, IIRC), but not everyone who was considered a Son of God was a descendant of David, so if that is the argument, then it doesn't get off the ground.

The "Seed of David" does refer to descendants. Not sure how anyone could read anything else in that.

badger3k · 10-07-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by show_no_mercy

Where is Mary listed in Jesus' bloodline in Luke 3?

The Matthew genealogy follows Joseph's line (Jesus' legal father), through David's son Solomon. Luke follows Mary's line (Jesus' blood mother), through David's son Nathan. They both arrive at David as the common ancestor so Jesus is covered in this regard from both side of his earthy parents.

Luke 3:31. "the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David."

Heli was Mary's Father.

Joseph son of Heli", in the English translation, simply reads, "...Joseph of Eli". The word 'son' before Heli, is not in the Greek text.

2 Samuel 21:8, says Michol had five sons. In reality, they were adopted sons of Merob. Jacob was the genetic father of Joseph. Heli, the father of Mary, was Joseph's father in law, his legal father.

Either way you slice it, Jesus comes from the seed of David. Spiritually through Joseph, and blood related through Mary.

Both Matthew and Luke make this very clear. Matthew uses Joseph's bloodline, meanwhile, Luke uses Mary's, which was quite uncommon in ancient days.

Using Young's again, here's the full genealogy (sorry if I misspelled this earlier, which I may have):

Quote:

23And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

24the [son] of Eli, the [son] of Matthat, the [son] of Levi, the [son] of Melchi, the [son] of Janna, the [son] of Joseph,

25the [son] of Mattathias, the [son] of Amos, the [son] of Naum, the [son] of Esli,

26the [son] of Naggai, the [son] of Maath, the [son] of Mattathias, the [son] of Semei, the [son] of Joseph, the [son] of Juda,

27the [son] of Joanna, the [son] of Rhesa, the [son] of Zerubbabel, the [son] of Shealtiel,

28the [son] of Neri, the [son] of Melchi, the [son] of Addi, the [son] of Cosam, the [son] of Elmodam, the [son] of Er,

29the [son] of Jose, the [son] of Eliezer, the [son] of Jorim, the [son] of Matthat,

30the [son] of Levi, the [son] of Simeon, the [son] of Juda, the [son] of Joseph, the [son] of Jonan, the [son] of Eliakim,

31the [son] of Melea, the [son] of Mainan, the [son] of Mattatha, the [son] of Nathan,

32the [son] of David, the [son] of Jesse, the [son] of Obed, the [son] of Booz, the [son] of Salmon, the [son] of Nahshon,

33the [son] of Amminadab, the [son] of Aram, the [son] of Esrom, the [son] of Pharez,

34the [son] of Judah, the [son] of Jacob, the [son] of Isaac, the [son] of Abraham, the [son] of Terah, the [son] of Nahor,

35the [son] of Serug, the [son] of Reu, the [son] of Peleg, the [son] of Eber,

36the [son] of Salah, the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Arphaxad, the [son] of Shem, the [son] of Noah, the [son] of Lamech,

37the [son] of Methuselah, the [son] of Enoch, the [son] of Jared, the [son] of Mahalaleel,

38the [son] of Cainan, the [son] of Enos, the [son] of Seth, the [son] of Adam, the [son] of God.

Not sure how taking line 3 out of the picture says anything for your case, except to say it goes through Nathan, meaning Joseph came from Two men - now this is possible with inbreeding of a royal line, which did happen, BUT...when carrying descent from a male line, this doesn't work. There is no indication that I am aware of that the ancient Israelites traced descent through the female line. To be descendant from two men...well, there would have to be some doubt as to who the father really is, but maybe that is the case. :huh:

The 2 Samuel quote is really interesting, since this is the part you left out:

Quote:

7and the king hath pity on Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, son of Saul, because of the oath of Jehovah that [is] between them, between David and Jonathan son of Saul;

8and the king taketh the two sons of Rizpah daughter of Aiah, whom she bore to Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth, and the five sons of Michal daughter of Saul whom she bare to Adriel son of Barzillai the Meholathite,

9and giveth them into the hand of the Gibeonites, and they hang them in the hill before Jehovah; and the seven fall together, and they have been put to death in the days of harvest, in the first [days], the commencement of barley-harvest.

Not sure what that has to do with anyone's descendants, since the people mentioned were given over as a sacrifice to ensure a bountiful harvest. This is simply a record of human sacrifice for fertility, since it was done in time of famine. Nothing to do with adopted kin. I hope you merely copied the line without knowing the context as opposed to deliberately cherry picking a line you thought to help your case while ignoring the broader context. People here don't like the latter, while we try to teach others to avoid the former. Context is everything. What is the argument with regards to the quoted lines?

edit: Seriously, how does the sacrifice of these people relate to adopted kin? It has nothing to do with that. After rereading your lines, I really am curious.

gdeering · 10-08-2009, 03:29 AM

Dear IBelieveInHymn,

The point of the Davidic decent is that God told the Jews that their Messiah would be 100% human (and marry etc...). Jesus does not fit this picture.

Gregg

show_no_mercy · 10-08-2009, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Heli was Mary's Father.

Where is this demonstrated in any canonical gospel? According to the Infancy gospel of James, some guy named Joachim was Mary's father.

mg01 · 10-08-2009, 09:14 AM

No one mentioned Matthews inability to count? He specifies in 1:17 three sets of 14 generations from Abraham but is short one name in the last set from Jossiah. And, not only does his genealogy not agree with Luke (the unsupportable Mary/Joseph dodge), it doesn't agree with any list found in the Hebrew Bible either.

I'm quite sure however that Google will reveal the common apologetic response for this as well.

badger3k · 10-13-2009, 05:56 PM

No answer to the Mary problem?

How do we solve a problem like Maria?

Beuller....:frown:

I see Ibelieve has posted, at least as of the 11th. Not that long ago. Come on, let's see the evidence.

arnoldo · 10-13-2009, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

God promised David He would:

1. Make a house for David, a physical temple built by Solomon.
2. After his death He would set up and establish the kingdom of David’s own seed or descendant, but NOT forever.
3. The descendant of David (Messiah) will build a house for Yahweh’s name, and Yahweh will establish the throne of his Messiah’s kingdom FOREVER.
4. The Messianic descendant of David will be Yahweh’s son, and Yahweh will be his Father.

The other prophecies in the OT were as follows;

He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham).
(Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)

He would be from the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) .
(Genesis 49:8-10; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5)

He would be a descendent of David. (2 Samuel 7:4-5,12-13; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32-33,67-69; Acts 2:29-30; Matthew 1:17; Romans 1:3)

He would be born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem).
(Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6; John 7:42)

He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene.
(Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7,24)

The exact time of His crucifixion was known (483 years from the decree to build the temple, which was around 444 B.C.E.). (Daniel 9:25; Nehemiah 2:1-8; 5:14)

He would be born of a virgin.
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23; Galatians 4:4; Genesis 3:15)

His name would be Immanuel. Immanuel in Hebrew means "G-d with us."
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

His name would be Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew), which means "Savior" or "Salvation." The word Yeshua in Hebrew means "salvation." It is derived from another Hebrew word, Yashah, which means "to save, deliver, preserve, bring salvation, get victory." (Matthew 1:21)

His name would be the Messiah. The word Christ in English comes from the Greek word Christos, which means "The Anointed One." Christos in Greek is the word Mashiach in Hebrew, which also means "The Anointed One." The word Mashiach means "Messiah," who is Yeshua. (John 1:41)

He would be the only begotten Son of G-d.
(Psalm 2:2,6-7; John 1:14; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:1-2,5)

He would be the Son of G-d and G-d would be His Father.
(Psalm 89:26-27; 2 Samuel 7:8,12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:7-10; Hebrews 1:1-2,5; Mark 14:36; John 20:30-31)

He would be circumcised the eighth day according to the law of purification.
(Luke 2:21-24; Leviticus 12:1-6)

He would go to Egypt and return to the land of Israel.
(Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15)

Young babies would die in an attempt to kill Yeshua at His birth.
(Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

He would be preceded by a messenger (a type of Elijah [Eliyahu] known as John (Yochanan) the Immerser [Baptist]) who would prepare the way of the Lord. (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13,76; Matthew 11:7,10)

The messenger, John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist), would be preaching in the wilderness. (Isaiah 40:3-5; Luke 1:13,80,3:2-6)

He would be a prophet like Moses (Moshe).
(Deuteronomy 18:15; John 1:45; Acts 3:20-23)

He would be anointed of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh).
(Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1; Matthew 3:16)

He would preach and teach in the temple (Beit HaMikdash).
(Malachi 3:1; Luke 4:16; Matthew 26:55; John 7:28; 8:1-2)

He came specifically to the house of Israel and not to the Gentiles.
(Matthew 15:21-26)

Yeshua would be rejected by His own people Israel (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many, many individual Jews were believers in Messiah during the first century. This can be seen very clearly by carefully examining Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Book of Acts.(Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5)]

Yeshua is the stone that the builders rejected.
(Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 3:10-12; Romans 9:11)

Yeshua would be received by the Gentiles (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many Gentiles are not believers in Yeshua and many others are believers in name only and not true followers with their hearts. The believers in Messiah are commanded to follow G-d with all of their heart (Deuteronomy 6:4-9).] (Isaiah 11:10; 42:6; 49:6,22; 54:3; 60:3,5,11,16; 61:6,9; 62:2; 66:12,19; Malachi 1:11; Luke 2:30-32; Acts 28:28)

He would speak in parables.
(Psalm 78:2-4; Matthew 13:34-35)

The ministry of Yeshua would be in Galilee.
(Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:12-16,23)

His ministry would be to heal the sick, set the captives free, and preach deliverance. This is known as the basar (gospel) in Hebrew.
(Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:16-21; Matthew 4:23; 9:34-35; Acts 2:22; 10:38)

Yeshua was to be the shepherd of Israel because Israel had no shepherd.
(Ezekiel 34:5-10; 1 Kings 22:17; Zechariah 10:2; Genesis 49:22,24; Psalm 23:1; 80:1; Isaiah 40:10-11; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24; John 10:11,14-15)

His message would not be believed.
(Isaiah 53:1; John 12:37-38)

The meek would praise Him.
(Psalm 8:1-2; Matthew 21:15-16)

Illegal merchandise trading would be done in the temple.
(Psalm 69:9; John 2:13-17; Isaiah 56:7; Matthew 21:12-13)

He would be hated.
(Psalm 69:4; 35:19; 109:2-3; 119:161; John 15:24-25)

He would be a reproach to the people.
(Psalm 69:9; 89:50-51; Romans 15:3)

He would not seek publicity.
(Isaiah 42:1-2; Matthew 12:15-19; 9:30; 8:4)

He can be trusted and would be compassionate.
(Isaiah 42:3; Matthew 12:15,20-21)

No evil words would proceed from His mouth.
(Isaiah 53:9; Luke 23:41; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

His disciples would forsake Him.
(Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31-35,56)

There was nothing physically beautiful in Him to be desired.
(Isaiah 53:2; Psalm 22:6; Mark 6:1-3; Philippians 2:7)

He gave up the glory in Heaven for the poverty of earth.
(Luke 9:58; 2 Corinthians 8:9)

He would publicly enter Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) before the time of His crucifixion. (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-5)

He would ride into Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) on a donkey.
(Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:5)

He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
(Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-16)

His betrayal price would be given for a potter's field.
(Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3,7-10)

He would be betrayed by a friend.
(Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-21)

Both Jew and Gentile would conspire against Him.
(Psalm 2:1-2; Acts 4:27-28; Matthew 26:3; 27:1-2)

He would be nailed to a tree.
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23; Psalm 22:16; John 19:18; 20:25)

He would suffer for others.
(Isaiah 53:6; Matthew 20:28)

He would die for our sins.
(Isaiah 53:5; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 2:24)

He would be mocked.
(Psalm 22:7-8; Matthew 27:39-43)

He would die with the transgressors.
(Isaiah 53: 12; Mark 15:27-28)

He would make intercession for His murderers.
(Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

He would be smitten.
(Micah 5:1; Isaiah 50:6; Lamentations 3:30; Matthew 26:67; 27:30)

He would be spit upon.
(Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67, 27:30)

He would be forsaken by G-d.
(Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)

He would be given gall and vinegar to eat and drink.
(Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34,48)

He opened not His mouth when accused.
(Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 26:63-64; 27:12-14)

His garments would be parted.
(Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35)

Not one bone would be broken.
(Psalm 34:20; John 19:33,36)

He would be pierced.
(Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34,37)

He would be like a lamb going to the slaughter.
(Isaiah 53:7; Acts 8:26-35)

He is King of the Jews (and the world).
(Psalm 2:6; John 18:33,37; 19:19-22)

He would be buried with the rich.
(Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

He would die.
(Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:50)

His soul would not be left in hell.
(Psalm 16:10; 49:15; 56:13; Acts 2:27,31; 13:33-35)

He would rise from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10; Luke 24:6,31,34; Acts 2:27-31; 13:35)

Others would rise from the dead with Him.
(Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52-53)

He would rise the third day from the grave.
(Jonah 1:17; 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:45-46; Matthew 12:40)

He would ascend into Heaven.
(Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9; Luke 24:50-51)

He would sit at the right hand of G-d.
(Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:2-3; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:22)

He would usher in a New Covenant (Brit Hadashah).
(Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20)

He would be a sure foundation to all who believe.
(Isaiah 28: 16; Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:4-6)

Seventy Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming

Johnny Skeptic · 10-13-2009, 09:48 PM

Message to arnoldo: I will number the prophecies that you mentioned for easy reference.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming

Item 1

He would be a descendent of Abraham (Avraham).
(Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; Matthew 1:1-2,17; Galatians 3:8,16)

Item 2

He would be from the tribe of Judah (Yehudah) .
(Genesis 49:8-10; Hebrews 7:14; Revelation 5:5)

Item 3

He would be a descendent of David. (2 Samuel 7:4-5,12-13; 1 Chronicles 17:11-14; Psalm 132:11; Luke 1:32-33,67-69; Acts 2:29-30; Matthew 1:17; Romans 1:3)

Item 4

He would be born in Bethlehem (Beit Lechem).
(Micah 5:2; Matthew 2:4-6; John 7:42)

Item 5

He would be from Nazareth and be called a Nazarene.
(Matthew 2:23; Luke 1:26-27; John 1:45; Judges 13:5-7,24)

Item 6

The exact time of His crucifixion was known (483 years from the decree to build the temple, which was around 444 B.C.E.). (Daniel 9:25; Nehemiah
2:1-8; 5:14)

Item 7

He would be born of a virgin.
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:20-23; Galatians 4:4; Genesis 3:15)

Item 8

His name would be Immanuel. Immanuel in Hebrew means "G-d with us."
(Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

Item 9

His name would be Jesus (Yeshua in Hebrew), which means "Savior" or "Salvation." The word Yeshua in Hebrew means "salvation." It is derived from another Hebrew word, Yashah, which means "to save, deliver, preserve, bring salvation, get victory." (Matthew 1:21)

Item 10

His name would be the Messiah. The word Christ in English comes from the Greek word Christos, which means "The Anointed One." Christos in Greek is the word Mashiach in Hebrew, which also means "The Anointed One." The word Mashiach means "Messiah," who is Yeshua. (John 1:41)

Item 11

He would be the only begotten Son of G-d.
(Psalm 2:2,6-7; John 1:14; Acts 13:33; Hebrews 1:1-2,5)

Item 12

He would be the Son of G-d and G-d would be His Father.
(Psalm 89:26-27; 2 Samuel 7:8,12-14; 1 Chronicles 22:7-10; Hebrews 1:1-2,
5; Mark 14:36; John 20:30-31)

Item 13

He would be circumcised the eighth day according to the law of purification.
(Luke 2:21-24; Leviticus 12:1-6)

Item 14

He would go to Egypt and return to the land of Israel.
(Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:13-15)

Item 15

Young babies would die in an attempt to kill Yeshua at His birth.
(Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Item 16

He would be preceded by a messenger (a type of Elijah [Eliyahu] known as John (Yochanan) the Immerser [Baptist]) who would prepare the way of the Lord. (Malachi 3:1; Luke 1:13,76; Matthew 11:7,10)

Item 17

The messenger, John (Yochanan) the Immerser (Baptist), would be preaching in the wilderness. (Isaiah 40:3-5; Luke 1:13,80,3:2-6)

Item 18

He would be a prophet like Moses (Moshe).
(Deuteronomy 18:15; John 1:45; Acts 3:20-23)

Item 19

He would be anointed of the Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh).
(Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1; Matthew 3:16)

Item 20

He would preach and teach in the temple (Beit HaMikdash).
(Malachi 3:1; Luke 4:16; Matthew 26:55; John 7:28; 8:1-2)

Item 21

He came specifically to the house of Israel and not to the Gentiles.
(Matthew 15:21-26)

Item 22

Yeshua would be rejected by His own people Israel (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many, many individual Jews were believers in Messiah during the first century. This can be seen very clearly by carefully examining Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Book of Acts.(Psalm 69:8; 31:11; 88:8,18; Job 19:13; John 1:11; 7:3,5)]

Item 23

Yeshua is the stone that the builders rejected.
(Psalm 118:22; Isaiah 3:10-12; Romans 9:11)

Item 24

Yeshua would be received by the Gentiles (corporately). [Note: It should be pointed out that many Gentiles are not believers in Yeshua and many others are believers in name only and not true followers with their hearts. The believers in Messiah are commanded to follow G-d with all of their heart (Deuteronomy 6:4-9).] (Isaiah 11:10; 42:6; 49:6,22; 54:3; 60:3,5,11,16; 61:6,9; 62:2; 66:12,19; Malachi 1:11; Luke 2:30-32; Acts 28:28)

Item 25

He would speak in parables.
(Psalm 78:2-4; Matthew 13:34-35)

Item 26

The ministry of Yeshua would be in Galilee.
(Isaiah 9:1-2; Matthew 4:12-16,23)

Item 27

His ministry would be to heal the sick, set the captives free, and preach deliverance. This is known as the basar (gospel) in Hebrew.
(Isaiah 61:1-2; Luke 4:16-21; Matthew 4:23; 9:34-35; Acts 2:22; 10:38)

Item 28

Yeshua was to be the shepherd of Israel because Israel had no shepherd.
(Ezekiel 34:5-10; 1 Kings 22:17; Zechariah 10:2; Genesis 49:22,24; Psalm 23:1; 80:1; Isaiah 40:10-11; Ezekiel 34:23-24; 37:24; John 10:11,14-15)

Item 29

His message would not be believed.
(Isaiah 53:1; John 12:37-38)

Item 30

The meek would praise Him.
(Psalm 8:1-2; Matthew 21:15-16)

Item 31

Illegal merchandise trading would be done in the temple.
(Psalm 69:9; John 2:13-17; Isaiah 56:7; Matthew 21:12-13)

Item 32

He would be hated.
(Psalm 69:4; 35:19; 109:2-3; 119:161; John 15:24-25)

Item 33

He would be a reproach to the people.
(Psalm 69:9; 89:50-51; Romans 15:3)

Item 34

He would not seek publicity.
(Isaiah 42:1-2; Matthew 12:15-19; 9:30; 8:4)

Item 35

He can be trusted and would be compassionate.
(Isaiah 42:3; Matthew 12:15,20-21)

Item 36

No evil words would proceed from His mouth.
(Isaiah 53:9; Luke 23:41; 1 Peter 2:21-22; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

Item 37

His disciples would forsake Him.
(Zechariah 13:7; Matthew 26:31-35,56)

Item 38

There was nothing physically beautiful in Him to be desired.
(Isaiah 53:2; Psalm 22:6; Mark 6:1-3; Philippians 2:7)

Item 39

He gave up the glory in Heaven for the poverty of earth.
(Luke 9:58; 2 Corinthians 8:9)

Item 40

He would publicly enter Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) before the time of His crucifixion. (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:1-5)

Item 41

He would ride into Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) on a donkey.
(Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:5)

Item 42

He would be sold for 30 pieces of silver.
(Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-16)

Item 43

His betrayal price would be given for a potter's field.
(Zechariah 11:13; Matthew 27:3,7-10)

Item 44

He would be betrayed by a friend.
(Psalm 41:9; John 13:18-21)

Item 45

Both Jew and Gentile would conspire against Him.
(Psalm 2:1-2; Acts 4:27-28; Matthew 26:3; 27:1-2)

Item 46

He would be nailed to a tree.
(Deuteronomy 21:22-23; Psalm 22:16; John 19:18; 20:25)

Item 47

He would suffer for others.
(Isaiah 53:6; Matthew 20:28)

Item 48

He would die for our sins.
(Isaiah 53:5; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 2:24)

Item 49

He would be mocked.
(Psalm 22:7-8; Matthew 27:39-43)

Item 50

He would die with the transgressors.
(Isaiah 53: 12; Mark 15:27-28)

Item 51

He would make intercession for His murderers.
(Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Item 52

He would be smitten.
(Micah 5:1; Isaiah 50:6; Lamentations 3:30; Matthew 26:67; 27:30)

Item 53

He would be spit upon.
(Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 26:67, 27:30)

Item 54

He would be forsaken by G-d.
(Psalm 22:1; Matthew 27:46)

Item 55

He would be given gall and vinegar to eat and drink.
(Psalm 69:21; Matthew 27:34,48)

Item 56

He opened not His mouth when accused.
(Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 26:63-64; 27:12-14)

Item 57

His garments would be parted.
(Psalm 22:18; Matthew 27:35)

Item 58

Not one bone would be broken.
(Psalm 34:20; John 19:33,36)

Item 59

He would be pierced.
(Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34,37)

Item 60

He would be like a lamb going to the slaughter.
(Isaiah 53:7; Acts 8:26-35)

Item 61

He is King of the Jews (and the world).
(Psalm 2:6; John 18:33,37; 19:19-22)

Item 62

He would be buried with the rich.
(Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

Item 63

He would die.
(Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:50)

Item 64

His soul would not be left in hell.
(Psalm 16:10; 49:15; 56:13; Acts 2:27,31; 13:33-35)

Item 65

He would rise from the dead.
(Psalm 16:10; Luke 24:6,31,34; Acts 2:27-31; 13:35)

Item 66

Others would rise from the dead with Him.
(Psalm 68:18; Ephesians 4:8; Matthew 27:52-53)

Item 67

He would rise the third day from the grave.
(Jonah 1:17; 1 Corinthians 15:4; Luke 24:45-46; Matthew 12:40)

Item 68

He would ascend into Heaven.
(Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9; Luke 24:50-51)

Item 69

He would sit at the right hand of G-d.
(Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:2-3; Ephesians 1:20-21; 1 Peter 3:22)

Item 70

He would usher in a New Covenant (Brit Hadashah).
(Jeremiah 31:31; Luke 22:20)

Item 71

He would be a sure foundation to all who believe.
(Isaiah 28: 16; Romans 10:11; 1 Peter 2:4-6)

I will start a new thread with those prophecies. The title will be "Prophecies of Yeshua's First Coming."

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10-08-2009, 03:29 AM	#245
gdeering Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 237	Dear IBelieveInHymn, The point of the Davidic decent is that God told the Jews that their Messiah would be 100% human (and marry etc...). Jesus does not fit this picture. Gregg

10-08-2009, 09:14 AM	#247
mg01 Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: USA Posts: 197	No one mentioned Matthews inability to count? He specifies in 1:17 three sets of 14 generations from Abraham but is short one name in the last set from Jossiah. And, not only does his genealogy not agree with Luke (the unsupportable Mary/Joseph dodge), it doesn't agree with any list found in the Hebrew Bible either. I'm quite sure however that Google will reveal the common apologetic response for this as well.

10-13-2009, 05:56 PM	#248
badger3k Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Killeen, TX Posts: 1,388	No answer to the Mary problem? How do we solve a problem like Maria? Beuller....:frown: I see Ibelieve has posted, at least as of the 11th. Not that long ago. Come on, let's see the evidence.

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