Freethought & Rationalism ArchiveThe archives are read only. |
03-15-2006, 12:53 PM | #1 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Thomas of Edessa, De nativitate domini nostri Christi
I've been interested for a while in the question of Roman celebration of 25 Dec. as a solar feast. J. G. Frazer in his Golden Bough makes some quotations from a Nestorian writer, Thomas of Edessa, to show that at his time (6th century) pagans in Syria were still celebrating a solar feast on this date.
I have obtained the only publication of Thomas' work, which consists of an English introduction, Syriac text and Latin translation. The interesting part seems to be in chapters 10-11, at the junction of the two. But does it actually support the weight that Frazer seeks to place on it? Feel free to try out your Latin on bits of it. I've split it up into sentences with this in mind -- a whole chapter is a bit daunting... All the best, Roger Pearse |
03-15-2006, 01:11 PM | #2 | |||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Roger Pearse |
|||||
03-15-2006, 01:20 PM | #3 | |||||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Roger Pearse |
|||||
03-15-2006, 04:22 PM | #4 |
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: 7th Heaven
Posts: 406
|
Roger, is this the earliest evidence for a sun celebration on the 25th...the 6th century A.D.?
By the way, thanks for the translations. My Latin is horrible, but it is fun to compare your translation with the Latin and actually recognize the Latin words. Thanks. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? |
03-15-2006, 05:44 PM | #5 | |||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: none
Posts: 9,879
|
Quote:
Quote:
(This is a very non-literal translation. Literally, it would look something like: "To him indeed every knee of celestial (things), terrestrial (things), and those who are under the earth is bent.") Quote:
|
|||
03-16-2006, 05:18 AM | #6 | ||
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Quote:
We know that Aurelian inaugurated games of the sun (so Eusebius in the Chronicle for 274), when he created the official cult of Sol Invictus, but such Ludi are in October in the Chronography. I think people have tended to presume he also denominated 25 Dec. and so the feast dates to him. But actual evidence of this appears to be lacking. You will notice how slender are the threads of data on which we try to learn what happened. Such is the study of antiquity, I'm afraid. Quote:
I'm trying to pin down what Thomas says about pagan festivals at Christmas time in his own day. My interest was sparked by a vague-looking reference in Frazer. I never, ever, trust such references unless I have checked them. It's looking as if the reference is correct. What I would really like to do is to translate all of Thomas and shove the result online as a public domain text. I doubt any of us have the energy for that, tho. All the best, Roger Pearse |
||
03-16-2006, 05:41 AM | #7 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Here we are so far
Thank you Chris! I've incorporated all mine and yours (and changed both a bit where I thought I should -- it's always easier once someone has had a go, isn't it?). Anyone with a bit of Latin, feel free to jump in on a sentence or clause!
All the best, Roger Pearse |
03-16-2006, 07:35 AM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 701
|
Thanks for this, Roger!
Do I understand correctly that the same Chronography of 354 (=Philocalian calendar, right?) is also the first document to place Christmas on Dec 25? Here are some other mentions of sun-worship that I've run across: - Ambrose (late 4th century) complains that Christians celebrate the "seasons" (presumably solstices and equinoxes?) - Leo (5th century) likewise complains that Christians salute the rising sun on Christmas morning, and attacks those who say Xmas "derive[s] its honor, not so much from the Nativity of Christ as, according to them, from the rising of the new sun." |
03-16-2006, 07:56 AM | #9 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
(To add a bit, just reply to this, and edit the bit you want to and leave the rest).
|
03-16-2006, 12:38 PM | #10 |
Veteran Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: N/A
Posts: 4,370
|
Chapter 10. Why God ordained that he would be conceived in the spring time.
That God indeed ordained that he should be conceived in the spring, this was because at this time also God made the whole creation: for the sameness of the season taught, that it was the same [one] who created [everything] from the beginning and who now renewed [everything] through this [man] who was conceived and then, in this time was born according to an order of nature which God established then from the beginning. So we speak from the congruity and similarity of the divine works. For just as the day at this time, the length of light, wanes and diminishes down to nine hours, but night, the empire of shadows, becomes longer and extends to fifteen hours; and then the day begins, the kingdom of light, to take (hours) from night, the empire of shadows; again (just as) there are no fruits of the cereal crops (?) or the trees today among us, --- for the cereal crops [scarcely] begin to be visible, and all of the trees are losing their leaves --- in a similar way both are seen among men * * * * * * * * * the advent of our Lord, Christ; for this scattered abroad the light of the knowledge of truth from our souls. The shadows of the error of worshipping idols cling onto our thoughts, while we were deprived and naked also from all the fruits of the works of justice. Moreover our Lord and our Redeemer, Christ, came; and when he saw that we had gone astray in our reason, then he expelled from our the shadows of the worship of idols, and led us into perfect knowledge of the Holy Trinity, Father and Son and holy Spirit; he also gave to us the grace of the Spirit, through whom we were able to be born and to make the fruit of justice, acceptable to God the Creator. (?) But also the pagans, worshippers of the elements, celebrate a great feast today every year and everywhere, for this purpose, of course, because the sun begins to overcome, and his power to increase itself more. (?) But it was necessary for them to consider that, if it is appropriate [to celebrate] with rejoicing and celebration that day began to consume [time] from night, by the same logic the same celebrations would be appropriate when later night, the kingdom of shadows, begins to consume [time] from day, the empire of the sun. For just as while night is prolonged, unless again it were to grow shorter, the normal life (ratio vitae = rule of the life = normal life) of men would perish; similarly also the day when it begins to become longer, unless it again were to grow shorter, there would be no permanence in this world, because without summer and winter, heat and cold, our normal life here could not subsist, because * * * * is impossible without the ascent and descent of the sun, the elongation and dimunition of the night and day, that that season could exist. So it is useful to us when the sun overcomes, and likewise to us when it in fact wanes. It would therefore be necessary for the mistaken pagans to celebrate a holiday for both changes or neither; because equal profit comes from both, this is from God, who ordained these things thus. Chapter 11. Exhortation to upright life. Therefore the feast that they themselves were celebrating, as I said, of the sun of course who begins at this time to overcome the rule of the shadows, and will wane again. But holy church celebrates the feast of the nativity of Christ, the sun of justice, who has begun to overcome error and Satan, and will never wane; of whom, instead, extends itself until all things visible and invisible are bound under his rule. To whom every knee in heaven, earth and of those beneath the earth shall be bent. Just as, [therefore,] our holidays are greater and more powerful than those of the pagans and all religions, ---- for true knowledge is found only among us, ---- so in our manners, which are founded in the worship of God, it is necessary to be more honest and more pure than the rest of men, while we are equally solicitous about both: of the reading of the bible and of their interpretation, and indeed of the doctrine about the holiday and the cause of it; [but] also of the excellent and acceptable life in our Lord Christ. Let us take care of our companions and our brothers more than ourselves, if we are altogether disciples of the Apostles who were themselves imitators of the Lord. But see all of them were solicitous for our utility, and also used to labour day and night, in summer and in winter, on sea and land, by all ways and means, that we might be brought to the knowledge of our Lord Christ, and that we might find the good which is prepared in heaven for those who believe rightly and live rightly. They struggled with every evil, and dying handed themselves over for us, because our life in Christ was dearer to them than their own life in this world. What do I say, in this world? When one of them chose to separate himself from future blessings (bonis) for the benefit of all his brothers, that they might be partakers of the blessings of Christ; for he says: "I will pray that I myself may be anathema to Christ on behalf of my brothers and my relatives according to the flesh, who are the children of Israel." If therefore blessed Paul requested that he himself should be condemned and almost damned for the benefit of the community, how can we not be ashamed and blush, and not fall into great fear and trembling, that we call ourselves disciples of those, when we do not imitate their life and their perfect wishes? Let us be made like the Apostles [and] doctors in all things, in as much as is possible, so that we may be with them partakers of the heavenly blessings. For as long as we ponder on their doctrine and confess their faith, if we do not have their morals, we will not arrive at the place where they themselves walk; but we shall be like the blind men whom the rays of the sun strike, but however do not delight in their radiance, because there is lacking in them the organs necessary for that action. For in fact the upright life is the manifestation of a true faith and confirmation of a perfect discipleship, without * * * * * * * * * * nor our doctrine will be made credible to those who are outside the church, nor we, who are inside, will appear to hand over these, awed by the religion of God. (?) Let us be solicitous, therefore, of [our] behaviour deque?? in love towards each other; and [let us be careful] lest we be the cause of evil to ourselves, and a scandal to all who see us; but let us prepare ourselves for good works, that we may become worthy [to hear] that good word which says: "Come, blessed of the Father, to me, take possession of the kingdom which has been prepared for you from the foundation of the world," with all the just of Christ; to whom be praise, and upon us his mercy forever. Amen. The disputation on the Nativity is complete, made by Mar Thomas, doctor of Edessa. This speech may be that which he wrote On sin. Amen. |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|