Freethought & Rationalism Archive

douglas · 05-09-2007, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cege

While verse 9 is often interpreted by Christians as a prophecy that the Jewish Messiah would be laid in a rich man's grave, that just isn't what the verse says, either in or out of context.

Maybe this is nitpicking, but Young's literal translation of verse 9...

Quote:

9 And it appointeth with the wicked his grave, And with the rich [are] his high places, Because he hath done no violence, Nor [is] deceit in his mouth.

...makes it appear like "death" is used in a plural sense (assuming "high places" equates to death) and should be properly translated as "deaths." If it is supposed to be plural, that would make this prophecy unfilled since I believe Jesus only died once.

Can someone who knows Hebrew help me out with this?

EDIT: Answered my own question...

King James Version Translation 53:9
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.(1)

Jewish Translation from the Hebrew
And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy in his deaths, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.

gracebkr · 05-09-2007, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
You have just ducked the point I made. I have asserted that Jews ignored the resurrection because it didn't happen. It didn't raise a stir: no front page article in the Jerusalem Daily Parchment. No interviews of the witnesses by Larry King, Barbara Walters, Jon Stuart (all Jews).

Because it never happened.

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
Right! Someone should have reminded Matthew that there's a difference between a young woman and a virgin. You could get in a lot of trouble back then about that sort of thing.

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
Boy, what nonsense. Did you read my post?

If I knew for a certainty that after a few hours of agony the world would be freed from the yoke of satan, I'd go to heaven and live in bliss forever and control everything, I'd drive the nails in with my teeth!

Remember, Christians, as the majority religion of the West, go around under the delusion that your religion is respected by people of other religions. We respect you as people, but your religion, for us, is funnier than shit!

I mean god came down to earth as a dude and then he died! And once a week or so you eat his body and drink his blood, etc. And one of the holiest things you can do for god is spend your life not screwing!

Boy, who made your religion up? Robin Williams?

RED DAVE

Jews, most scholars that are Jewish do not deny Jesus was a man who preached, started a movement, died at the hands of the Romans and that the Tomb was empty. The contend his Divinity.

Young woman in Jewish times, before she was married, had to be a virgin. The punishment for sex before marriage was stoning, so it is an assumed, because they were Jews and knew the law.

Tears In The Rain · 05-09-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gracebkr

The writers of the gospels, were Jews who founded Christianity. So they knew the Old Testament.

If they were Jews, it seems funny that they would be ignorant of Palestinian geography and not know the difference between the Hebrew words "almah" and "bethulah" as well as misinterpret OT prophecies.

Tears In The Rain · 05-09-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Boy, who made your religion up? Robin Williams?

RED DAVE

I don't think Robin Williams would make up shit that fucked up. (OK maybe as fucked up but not in the same ways.)

gracebkr · 05-09-2007, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
You have just ducked the point I made. I have asserted that Jews ignored the resurrection because it didn't happen. It didn't raise a stir: no front page article in the Jerusalem Daily Parchment. No interviews of the witnesses by Larry King, Barbara Walters, Jon Stuart (all Jews).

Because it never happened.

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
Right! Someone should have reminded Matthew that there's a difference between a young woman and a virgin. You could get in a lot of trouble back then about that sort of thing.

From RED DAVE:
From gracebkr:
Boy, what nonsense. Did you read my post?

If I knew for a certainty that after a few hours of agony the world would be freed from the yoke of satan, I'd go to heaven and live in bliss forever and control everything, I'd drive the nails in with my teeth!

Remember, Christians, as the majority religion of the West, go around under the delusion that your religion is respected by people of other religions. We respect you as people, but your religion, for us, is funnier than shit!

I mean god came down to earth as a dude and then he died! And once a week or so you eat his body and drink his blood, etc. And one of the holiest things you can do for god is spend your life not screwing!

Boy, who made your religion up? Robin Williams?

RED DAVE

I don't know how you can say you respect someone or a group of people and then go on like that. That would be disrespect.

RED DAVE · 05-09-2007, 01:47 PM

From gracebkr:

Quote:

Jews, most scholars that are Jewish do not deny Jesus was a man who preached, started a movement, died at the hands of the Romans and that the Tomb was empty.

You are dreaming. Many, many Jewish scholars deny the whole story. As do most ordinary Jews.

From gracebkr:

Quote:

The contend his Divinity.

Sure do. And barring proof, so should you.

From gracebkr:

Quote:

Young woman in Jewish times, before she was married, had to be a virgin. The punishment for sex before marriage was stoning, so it is an assumed, because they were Jews and knew the law.

You are garbling the whole issue.

In Hebrew, there are two separate words: "almah," meaning, basically, "young woman" and "bethulah," meaning virgin. In Isaiah, the term is "almah." The proper translation is that "A young woman shall bear a child." Not a virgin.

Matthew, reading the OT in Greek, where, I gather, the word "parthenos" can mean a young woman or a virgin, mistranslated the phrase to "virgin," thus contributing to Christian fantasies.

If you want to defend your faith: the resurrection and all that nonsense, learn your stuff. You will not get away with facile or garbled remarks around here.

RED DAVE

RED DAVE · 05-09-2007, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gracebkr

I don't know how you can say you respect someone or a group of people and then go on like that. That would be disrespect.

Simple. People believe lots of dumb things. I, myself, have some very weird beliefs.

When I'm involved one on one with a person, or with a group, and religion is not the issue, it's cool. When religion comes up: it can on occasion get quite hairy. Remember, you Christians do not know how people of other religions view your religion. You murder us because of your religion. Think about that.

When you combine the confused accounts of four contradictory stories that are 2000 years old, plus your not-so-pleasant history, no wonder your tales are not given much credence.

RED DAVE

gracebkr · 05-09-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tears In The Rain

If they were Jews, it seems funny that they would be ignorant of Palestinian geography and not know the difference between the Hebrew words "almah" and "bethulah" as well as misinterpret OT prophecies.

Almah means young woman before marriage, the purity of her is implied.

Bethulah means virgin to someone who it is not going to be implied.

gracebkr · 05-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED DAVE

Simple. People believe lots of dumb things. I, myself, have some very weird beliefs.

When I'm involved one on one with a person, or with a group, and religion is not the issue, it's cool. When religion comes up: it can on occasion get quite hairy. Remember, you Christians do not know how people of other religions view your religion. You murder us because of your religion. Think about that.

When you combine the confused accounts of four contradictory stories that are 2000 years old, plus your not-so-pleasant history, no wonder your tales are not given much credence.

RED DAVE

When did I murder you? Or anyone for that matter. When you are with a group of people and religion comes up, did anyone get murdered at all, let alone by a Christian? There are black people in Darfur right now committing genocide, are all blacks responsible for this? Many whites had black slaves, are you and I as American's responsible for that? Are all Germans Nazi's? When you lump people into categories and generalize and bring up past things none of us had control over, things get ugly. We as a group of people, need to let the past atrocities not influence our behaviors today. Don't you feel bad for Muslims who are going to have to live with legacy some jerks who warped their religion did? It's not fair to lump people like that and it gives cause to hate. We need to stop the hating and start accepting and realize like Thomas Jefferson did :

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

RED DAVE · 05-09-2007, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gracebkr

Almah means young woman before marriage, the purity of her is implied.

Bethulah means virgin to someone who it is not going to be implied.

You need to do some research before you do your Christian thing here.

Here is a full explanation of the almah/bethulah thing from an Orthodox Jewish point of view.

http://www.kosherjudaism.com/virginbirth.html#rabbis

RED DAVE

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