Duvduv

Yes, you are making a valid point. I was just emphasizing that the Against Heresies book by a virtual unknown man named Irenaeus in the 2nd century is not really credible. I suppose your scenario would be equivalent to someone in the 20th century with a pseudonym of John Jones writing a book and pretending that it had really been written by someone named John Jones in the 18th century. A "bishop" in Lyons in the 2nd century is about as realistic as a hassidic rabbi in a Jewish community in the Congo in the 18th century.

aa5874

What absurd question you ask!!!

Are there any Christian documents from antiquity that you know are wholly historically accurate??

This is the sort of absurdities I detest.

Please, if it is found that all Christians writings are forgeries with credible evidence then I cannot be blamed for the FRAUD.

It is unheard of and quite illogical to blame and ridicule those who present credible data in any investigation for the conclusion or verdict.

Now, I have NOT claimed that all Christian writings are forgeries.

I have ALREADY listed some that are most likely NOT manipulated and these include the writings of Justin Martyr, Theophilus of Antioch, Athenagoras, Municius Felix, Arnobius and Tatian.

Sheshbazzar

Whether the premise is acceptable can only be weighed on the evidences of what this 'Irenaeus' allegedly wrote.

Christian testimony that there was a second century Irenaeus, or that this Irenaeus was the actual author of everything that is contained within the work 'Against Heresies' cannot be trusted to be accurate, or be taken at face value.

I for one, remain extremely skeptical of this claim. Too much of what 'Iraeneus' allegedly wrote reflects a much more developed and orthodox theology and set of dogmas than would be likely at that early date, all the more so being that he was located in remote Gaul.
And what 'Irenaeus' allegedly wrote, explicitly presenting The Four Gospels and Pauline NT writings, of which Justin Martyr whom allegedly was born in Palestine, converted in Ephesus, and settled and taught in Rome and whose writings a mere 50 years earlier displayed no evidence of any knowledge of the existence of any such four Gospels, or of any 'Mark', 'Matthew', 'Luke', 'John' or 'Paul', is something of Christian 'history' that stinks to high heaven..

Whether the claim is extraordinary or not depends on what the exact content of the alleged book contained.
What Christianity presents as having been its original contents is extraordinary, and can only be defended by presenting a version of church history that is highly at odds with what is revealed by the writings of Justin Martyr.

This is exactly what we would expect pious church forgers to have produced to prop up a false and invented church history, as they did with hundreds of other forged documents for hundreds of years more.
You cannot trust a Christian, or writings in their possession any further than you can throw them.

aa5874

Your view of "historicity" is extremely myopic and troubling. You very well know Irenaeus could have existed but did NOT write our present "Against Heresies" of Five Books.

Anyone who have the slightest of familiarity with Apologetic sources are aware of the numerous forgeries or mis-attributed authors. The very NT Canon is Evidence against your Myopic view of historicity.

100% of the authors of the NT Canon in 100% of ALL the EXISTING CODICES with the NT have been mis-attributed or are forgeries.

Writings in the NT Codices in the name of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter, James, and Jude are either forgeries or mis-attributed based on the DATED NT papryri.

Duvduv

AA, I am amazed you make the argument so strongly for forgeries or alterations and discrepancies in the writings of the propagandists/heresiologists but can't seem to see it happen in the epistles.

steve_bnk

ll's you have to do is look at religion today. In the USA there are many mimisters who disagree strtongly on interpretation and meaning. Probably thousands of books on what is Chrtianity and what some consider defacto heresy.

Any niumber of semi literate Bozos can and do write books on Chrtianity,most we consider tripe. The discussionbs back then probaly were not much different.