Duvduv

If there are questions about the dating of the Muratorian Fragment, which gives a list of the canon to around 180, questions about the authenticity of the Festal Letter from Athanasius from 364, doubts about anything written by "Tertullian" who supposedly had a list in 204, then all that's left is a supposed list from good old Eusebius from 325.

And of course this is compounded by the fact that the original Nicene Creed contained no words or statements that are obviously directly derived from the epistles or gospels.

Now if even that can be called into question, then WHEN did the masses of Christians or even their leadership have and know about a NT canon? Into the 5th century? Or even later?

aa5874

Again, a most significant apologetic writer is Justin Martyr.

Justin Martyr wrote about the Jesus story and the state of the Jesus cult of Christians up to the mid-2nd century and he mentioned NO such thing as a Canon of the Church.

In fact, Justin Martyr claimed that there many people called Christians who did NOT BELIEVE the Jesus story. Some Christians were Magicians like Simon Magus and Menander.

It must be noted that the Church writers who claimed there was a NT Canon all gave erroneous information about the authorship, dating, chronology and even contents of the Gospels and the same applies to the Epistles.

The NT Canon was NOT known up to the 3rd century based on the writings of Arnobius, another apologetic source.

Arnobius, writing in the 3rd century, wrote about the Jesus Christ story but again does NOT mention any Canon of four Gospels with Acts of the Apostles and Epistles.

Doug Shaver

You really must read "The Formation of the New Testament Canon" by Richard Carrier. You'll find it at http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/NTcanon.html.

Duvduv

The bottom line would appear to be that the masses of Christians only became aware of whatever the clergy told them starting in the 5th century. Correspondence and apologetics were only intended for the literate elite as official talking points.

DCHindley

It would be earlier, during the time of Irenaeus (ca 180) that the NT books we are familiar with became available as a group (Irenaeus cites almost every single one, where before it seems the citations were sparse and spotty), unless you are buying into MM's fantastic conspiracy theory that Constantine had them whipped up to numb the minds of his populace.

DCH

Duvduv

All I would say David is that I am not a disciple of the biased church writer Eusebius and therefore would be consigned to the Inquisition because I cannot see how Irenaeus could have written about thefour gospels and official Christianity a mere thirty to forty years after Justin who mentions none of it. It is unrealistic. Nothing is known of the heresy maker other than what biased writers say about him.

Duvduv

Unfortunately Carrier's article takes for granted as gospel truth whatever came from the pen attributed to Eusebius. This is very problematic as far as I am concerned because many scholars tend to simply add a secular halo to whatever is claimed by the loyal church "historians."

aa5874

"Against Heresies" cannot be the work of a single writer.

It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE for the same writer in "Against Heresies" to claim Jesus Christ was about 30 years old in the 15th year of Tiberius, and was ALSO AWARE of the activities of Paul, the Pauline writings, Acts of the Apostles and STILL claim Jesus was Crucified when he was about 50 years old.

"Against Heresies" is a MOST FRAUDULENT document without any reasonable doubt.

It is virtually IMPOSSIBLE that a Bishop of the so-called Church could have PREACHED and TAUGHT in the supposed Churches of LYON that Jesus was crucified at about 50 years old when he was AWARE of gMark, gMatthew, gLuke, gJohn, Acts of the Apostles and the Pauline writings.


"Against Heresies" is historically and chronologically BOGUS.

Duvduv

The fact that all available information to tell us anything about the guy named Irenaeus comes first and foremost from a very biased unobjective writer who is described as a "historian" - Eusebius.......

aa5874

Actually, in a writing attributed to Hippolytus, "Refutation of All Heresies" a writer is mentioned called Irenaeus that wrote on the subject of heresies.

Refutation of All Heresies 6.37