Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Thomas II · 03-18-2006, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Thomas II,

If in the narrative, Jesus had the power to cure people with a simple command, and he was in a crowded room with hundreds of desperately ill people, it would be absurd for him to pick one person at random, cure him for no apparent reason and go on his way, leaving hundreds of other people to suffer.
The criticism of the man was that he carried his pallet (bed) on the Sabbath. The man when accused of illegally carrying his pallet, blames Jesus because Jesus ordered him to carry it. There is no magic here, except for the magic in the Sheep Gate Pool itself that cured the man. That certain water had this power was an accepted fact and would not have seemed unusual to the writer or readers of the time. Jesus is being accused of breaking a Sabbath law, not practicing magic. Again, there are no magical words or actions in the scene at all.

I'll come back later for the other one, but right now this called my attention...
It is not that Jesus has the power to cure people with a simple command.
It was THE WAY the command was issued, with authority, directed at the subconscious mind of the individual. There is another element that Jesus uses
and that is the frame of mind of the individual. If the frame of mind is not the proper one, Jesus can not perform his...ability.

Remember the time when Jesus tells the rich young man to give it all away and to follow him?...The man's mind was not ready, was not in the right place, so he did not follow Jesus and all Jesus could do is watch the young man with sadness as he walked away...

Remember the "good thief" and the "bad thief" by the cross? One's mind was in the right place, while the other was not...Who got the goodies? Exactly!
Many are there to be healed, but very few are mentally prepared.
Other time the person might be ready mentally but the general timing is not right...
For extraordinary (not supernatural) events to take place there is usually a combination of elements...

Remember the time when someone touched the hem of Jesus robe and is healed because the energy flowed from Jesus to the person, and Jesus asked "Who touched me?" because he had felt some energy had left him?
That is a case of perfect timing of the person being ready mentally, and Jesus being "open" ,and passing right in front of the person, all at the same time...
People were touching Jesus all the time and they were not getting healed, but THIS ONE in particular touched the hem of Jesus' robe, and the enegy flowed unobstructed.
All this is not a miracle. It is the work of ENERGY...

PhilosopherJay · 03-18-2006, 11:14 AM

Hi all,

Just to finish out the string, we have sign #5:

15: Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.
16: When evening came, his disciples went down to the sea,
17: got into a boat, and started across the sea to Caper'na-um. It was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them.
18: The sea rose because a strong wind was blowing.
19: When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat. They were frightened,
20: but he said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid."
21: Then they were glad to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going.

The word "sea" has been substituted for "beach." There is no reaction to this sign, no reference to this sign, no consequence, and no meaning. The disciples are frightened seeing someone approaching them at night. It is possible that, in the original, the disicples, who may have been slaves of Jesus, might have been frightened because either they had 1) stolen the boat or 2) deserted Jesus and thought that Jesus was coming to punish them. In any case, we have no magic here, ony a silly textural change meant to imply that Jesus had magical powers

Sign #6 is the healing of the blind man:

1: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth.
2: And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3: Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him.
4: We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work.
5: As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
6: As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man's eyes with the clay,
7: saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Silo'am" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing.
8: The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar, said, "Is not this the man who used to sit and beg?"
9: Some said, "It is he"; others said, "No, but he is like him." He said, "I am the man."
10: They said to him, "Then how were your eyes opened?"
11: He answered, "The man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, `Go to Silo'am and wash'; so I went and washed and received my sight."
12: They said to him, "Where is he?" He said, "I do not know."
13: They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind.
14: Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes.
15: The Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, "He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see."
16: Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" There was a division among them.

Again, it is the water (at siloam) that cures the man. Jesus prepared the man to enter the water apparently by pouring water into his eyes from a clay vessel that he makes. The Magic that cures the man is in the water at siloam. It seems to be the fact that Jesus made something out of clay, a vessel to anoint the man with that gets Jesus in trouble. Jesus is again only a physician or wiseman here who knows the healing properties in a body of water which cures the blindman.

Thus we see that of the first six alleged miracles of Jesus, there are no miracles or magic involved, at least not anything the writer and the original audience would consider miracles or magic.

This leaves only the 7th sign in the gospel of John, the raising of Lazarus as the only sign of Jesus' being a magician:
20: When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary sat in the house.
21: Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died.
22: And even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you."
23: Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
24: Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
25: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26: and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
27: She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world."
28: When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying quietly, "The Teacher is here and is calling for you."
29: And when she heard it, she rose quickly and went to him.
30: Now Jesus had not yet come to the village, but was still in the place where Martha had met him.
31: When the Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary rise quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there.
32: Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."
33: When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled;
34: and he said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to him, "Lord, come and see."
35: Jesus wept.
36: So the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"
37: But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"
38: Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone lay upon it.
39: Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days."
40: Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?"
41: So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
42: I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me."
43: When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Laz'arus, come out."
44: The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go."
45: Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him;

This is very impressive. This is certainly magic or at least would impress the people of the time as being magic. The question is what does Lazarus do after he is unbound and let go. Does he thank Jesus? Does he remember being dead? Does he tell Jesus he had mistakenly been taken for dead when he was really alive for four days? We never find out. Lazarus vanishes from the story as quickly as he appeared.

The other oddity is that Mary and Martha do not both come out to greet Jesus together. Instead Martha goes first, and then Mary goes leading out the crowd. What happens to Martha? We may suppose that she beats Jesus, Mary and the crowd to the tomb, she has servants wrap her in bandages and places a cloth on her face to obscure her identify. Then she emerges from the tomb on Jesus' pre-arranged calling. It is a perfect scam.

The only time when Jesus performs magic in the Gospel of John, it is set up in such a way as to suggest he is pulling a scam. I suggest that rather than appearing as a magician, the text of the gospel of John has Jesus appearing as a very clever man, but one totally devoid of supernatural or magical powers. This suggests that the original author was going for verisimilitude and some degree of truth in her writings.

Warmly,

Philosopher Jay

andrewcriddle · 03-18-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by praxeus

Hmmm.. interesting. Would it help his argument if someone found an ancient manuscript purporting to go back to the apostolic days looking at Jesus in that way ?

FWIW Morton Smith became very angry with poor Frank Kermode for suggesting in a review of 'Jesus the Magician' that the book was based on the 'Secret Gospel of Mark'.

Mortion Smith said very strongly that the validity of the claims in 'Jesus the Magician' were almost entirely independent of the 'Secret Gospel'.

Andrew Criddle

Thomas II · 03-18-2006, 09:07 PM

But Jay, why do you avoid talking about the story of the fig tree?
This story shows Jesus CURSING A TREE!!! JESUS ISSUES A CURSE!!
AGAINST A FIG TREE!! BECAUSE THE TREE DID NOT HAVE FRUITS OUT OF SEASON,which would indicate the arrival of the Messiah,as it was written.
There is NO WAY AROUND THAT ONE. IT IS A CURSE! And the tree dies!
That sounds like Magic to me...

Regarding the other "miracles " we were talking about before, FORTUNE TELLING is one of the MAGICAL ARTS, and so is ILLUSIONISM and MENTALISM...All this was not uncommon. Moses,Aaron, and Salomon were said to be great magicians of their time...

spamandham · 03-18-2006, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phlox Pyros

Hello, oh ye learned people of the IIDB forums. Was Jesus a magician?

Once you strip the mythology and "wisdom" sayings (which preceed the 1st century) away from Jesus, nothing is left. If there was a historical Jesus, absolutely nothing is known about him, including whether or not he was a magician.

Thomas II · 03-19-2006, 06:37 AM

Jay and all,

We are holding back ,for a moment, our judgement about the issue of Jesus existing or not, and we are looking into the possible origin and process of Jesus' alleged healing abilities.

Ok,Jay, in all the other "miracles" you mention, it appears that Jesus did not do any ritual...
Let's take a look at Mark 7, Mark 8 and John 9

www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark7.htm

www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark8.htm

www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john9.htm

In all these cases Jesus performs a little ritual of spitting on the ground,making some mud or clay,smearing it over the persons eyes, and telling them to go wash.
In one of the cases Jesus repeats the ritual a couple of times until the person regains all his sight. In other words, it is a progressive healing, and by repeating the same ritual the person got better and better.
In one of the cases, Jesus grunts,spits on the persons mouth,and utters the word "Ephphatha", which means "Be opened!"...
Back in those days the spit of a Rabbi was considered avery special thing...
Jesus obviously learned these rituals from someone, from some tradition of healers...

Thomas II · 03-19-2006, 07:21 AM

My take is that Jesus learned within a group, for those years which have beed "deleted" from public knowledge purposefully by people who had their own agenda...

From what I have gathered, Jesus was a Nazorean, which was a branch of the Essenes.

Those interested can read something about this in:

http://essenes.net/intro.htm

I don't see Jesus as the Roman God he was made to be by Constantine and the Catholic Church.

My understanding is that he was a Nazorean teacher, and a good one too...

PhilosopherJay · 03-19-2006, 07:24 AM

Hi Thomas II,

My book Evolution of Christs and Christianities (evocc.com) gives evidence that the gospel of John is the earliest gospel and that it is using a play by a woman (probably named Mary) as its source. This play, while quite fictionalized, does possibly contain references to real historical situations and people. The play seems to go out of its way to largely debunk the idea of the lead character having supernatural powers, rather suggesting that untrue rumors swirled around him and suggesting people made up "signs" from their own imaginations. On the other hand, the play does put forward the idea that the lead character was possessed by a daemon/angel named Jesus.

In the early Gospel of John (56?) we are getting only 7 signs/miracles. In the much later Gospel of Mark (100?), we are getting some 21 mostly different signs/miracles. Obviously there has been an enormous accretion of magical tales attributed to the character. In getting back to the possible historical character who may have been the model for the play, we may simply ignor the later added miracles, although in a few cases, some of them may have been in the original play.
Here is the important part of the fig tree tale in Mark:

11.20As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. 11.21And Peter remembered and said to him, "Master, look! The fig tree which you cursed has withered." 11.22And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. 11.23Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. 11.24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

The withering of the fig tree is an absurd story made up to illustrate the proposition that Jesus believed that sincere belief in something could make it real. That proposition may very well have been the belief of the historical character. The play, I suggest in the book, was written around 45 or 46 (although it is describing events that took place earlier, probably in 36-37). The play was written either during or just after the great famine. This explains all the references to "belief" and "bread." People had to believe they were going to get bread soon to survive the terrible famine.)

So, I think we can see the fig tree and most other examples of Jesus' magic as being later additions to the legend. The first six of the seven signs in John do not demonstrate that the character had magical powers but only that prophetic powers were attributed to him. The seventh sign, the raising of Lazarus is difficult to determine. Either the author portrayed the whole thing as a Jesus/Mary/Martha scam (most likely) or the author portrayed it as a miracle of the Jewish God, done by him as a favor to his son/angel who had come down to Earth and daemonically possessed another man's body.

So, while I grant that later portrayals of Jesus portrayed him as a magician with magical powers. The earliest portrayal from Mary (who may have actually known the dude if he existed) does not show him as a magician. Rather she indicates that he was a possessed man. In modern terms, it would be more correct to call the character a schizophrenic. Of course, the term was invented 1800 years to late for the people of ancient times to understand what they were dealing with.

Wamly,

Philosopher Jay

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

But Jay, why do you avoid talking about the story of the fig tree?
This story shows Jesus CURSING A TREE!!! JESUS ISSUES A CURSE!!
AGAINST A FIG TREE!! BECAUSE THE TREE DID NOT HAVE FRUITS OUT OF SEASON,which would indicate the arrival of the Messiah,as it was written.
There is NO WAY AROUND THAT ONE. IT IS A CURSE! And the tree dies!
That sounds like Magic to me...

Regarding the other "miracles " we were talking about before, FORTUNE TELLING is one of the MAGICAL ARTS, and so is ILLUSIONISM and MENTALISM...All this was not uncommon. Moses,Aaron, and Salomon were said to be great magicians of their time...

spamandham · 03-19-2006, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas II

Jay and all,

We are holding back ,for a moment, our judgement about the issue of Jesus existing or not, and we are looking into the possible origin and process of Jesus' alleged healing abilities.

It is not necessary to declare "he never existed" to recognize the legendary nature of the healing stories. If it walks on water like a legend, and quacks like a legend... then isn't the simplest explanation simply that the healing stories are legend?

First establish anything of substance at all about the man Jesus.

Thomas II · 03-19-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilosopherJay

Hi Thomas II,

My book Evolution of Christs and Christianities (evocc.com) gives evidence that the gospel of John is the earliest gospel and that it is using a play by a woman (probably named Mary) as its source. This play, while quite fictionalized, does possibly contain references to real historical situations and people. The play seems to go out of its way to largely debunk the idea of the lead character having supernatural powers, rather suggesting that untrue rumors swirled around him and suggesting people made up "signs" from their own imaginations. On the other hand, the play does put forward the idea that the lead character was possessed by a daemon/angel named Jesus.

In the early Gospel of John (56?) we are getting only 7 signs/miracles. In the much later Gospel of Mark (100?), we are getting some 21 mostly different signs/miracles. Obviously there has been an enormous accretion of magical tales attributed to the character. In getting back to the possible historical character who may have been the model for the play, we may simply ignor the later added miracles, although in a few cases, some of them may have been in the original play.
Here is the important part of the fig tree tale in Mark:

11.20As they passed by in the morning, they saw the fig tree withered away to its roots. 11.21And Peter remembered and said to him, "Master, look! The fig tree which you cursed has withered." 11.22And Jesus answered them, "Have faith in God. 11.23Truly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that what he says will come to pass, it will be done for him. 11.24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

The withering of the fig tree is an absurd story made up to illustrate the proposition that Jesus believed that sincere belief in something could make it real. That proposition may very well have been the belief of the historical character. The play, I suggest in the book, was written around 45 or 46 (although it is describing events that took place earlier, probably in 36-37). The play was written either during or just after the great famine. This explains all the references to "belief" and "bread." People had to believe they were going to get bread soon to survive the terrible famine.)

So, I think we can see the fig tree and most other examples of Jesus' magic as being later additions to the legend. The first six of the seven signs in John do not demonstrate that the character had magical powers but only that prophetic powers were attributed to him. The seventh sign, the raising of Lazarus is difficult to determine. Either the author portrayed the whole thing as a Jesus/Mary/Martha scam (most likely) or the author portrayed it as a miracle of the Jewish God, done by him as a favor to his son/angel who had come down to Earth and daemonically possessed another man's body.

So, while I grant that later portrayals of Jesus portrayed him as a magician with magical powers. The earliest portrayal from Mary (who may have actually known the dude if he existed) does not show him as a magician. Rather she indicates that he was a possessed man. In modern terms, it would be more correct to call the character a schizophrenic. Of course, the term was invented 1800 years to late for the people of ancient times to understand what they were dealing with.

Wamly,

Philosopher Jay

Hmmm...The story portrays a Jesus looking for signs that the Messiah was in the flesh. The reaction is kind of desperate,I'll give you that...
Jesus and the Apostles are strolling around a placid little area, and Jesus seeing a fig tree, thinks "Hmm...Let's see if it has figs...If it does,since it's not the season, it will be a confirmation that the Messiah is alive in the world and therefore...I AM THE MESSIAH..."
So Jesus looks around and around looking for ANY figs, but NOTHING, not a single fig, which meant "the Messiah IS NOT in the world"...Therefore Jesus was not being confirmed as the Messiah by scripture and by the tree!...
"DARN!" he thought to himself..."The good for nothing tree just told me I was not the Messiah!!"
"Well,the hell with you,tree!"...
So Jesus sent the thought form for the tree to die! And the tree died!
Then the next day they passed by the whithered fig tree, and Jesus said
"That's right...Whatever thought form you guys send forth it will be done as requested...So have confidence in yourselves and in what you pray for"

And LA DEE DA they went down the road, killing trees and what not...

Wasn't John and two other apostles called the "Sons of Thunder", or something like that, because they would issue "calls" right and left, all over the place like Harry Potters with new wands?...

There is also a little story in Acts where Peter basically kills an old couple for keeping some money they had promised to give to the group...

Oh Happy days!!!

03-18-2006, 11:14 AM	#52
PhilosopherJay Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Orlando Posts: 2,014	The Last Three Signs Hi all, Just to finish out the string, we have sign #5: 15: Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. 16: When evening came, his disciples went down to the sea, 17: got into a boat, and started across the sea to Caper'na-um. It was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 18: The sea rose because a strong wind was blowing. 19: When they had rowed about three or four miles, they saw Jesus walking on the sea and drawing near to the boat. They were frightened, 20: but he said to them, "It is I; do not be afraid." 21: Then they were glad to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat was at the land to which they were going. The word "sea" has been substituted for "beach." There is no reaction to this sign, no reference to this sign, no consequence, and no meaning. The disciples are frightened seeing someone approaching them at night. It is possible that, in the original, the disicples, who may have been slaves of Jesus, might have been frightened because either they had 1) stolen the boat or 2) deserted Jesus and thought that Jesus was coming to punish them. In any case, we have no magic here, ony a silly textural change meant to imply that Jesus had magical powers Sign #6 is the healing of the blind man: 1: As he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 2: And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3: Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be made manifest in him. 4: We must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day; night comes, when no one can work. 5: As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world." 6: As he said this, he spat on the ground and made clay of the spittle and anointed the man's eyes with the clay, 7: saying to him, "Go, wash in the pool of Silo'am" (which means Sent). So he went and washed and came back seeing. 8: The neighbors and those who had seen him before as a beggar, said, "Is not this the man who used to sit and beg?" 9: Some said, "It is he"; others said, "No, but he is like him." He said, "I am the man." 10: They said to him, "Then how were your eyes opened?" 11: He answered, "The man called Jesus made clay and anointed my eyes and said to me, `Go to Silo'am and wash'; so I went and washed and received my sight." 12: They said to him, "Where is he?" He said, "I do not know." 13: They brought to the Pharisees the man who had formerly been blind. 14: Now it was a sabbath day when Jesus made the clay and opened his eyes. 15: The Pharisees again asked him how he had received his sight. And he said to them, "He put clay on my eyes, and I washed, and I see." 16: Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the sabbath." But others said, "How can a man who is a sinner do such signs?" There was a division among them. Again, it is the water (at siloam) that cures the man. Jesus prepared the man to enter the water apparently by pouring water into his eyes from a clay vessel that he makes. The Magic that cures the man is in the water at siloam. It seems to be the fact that Jesus made something out of clay, a vessel to anoint the man with that gets Jesus in trouble. Jesus is again only a physician or wiseman here who knows the healing properties in a body of water which cures the blindman. Thus we see that of the first six alleged miracles of Jesus, there are no miracles or magic involved, at least not anything the writer and the original audience would consider miracles or magic. This leaves only the 7th sign in the gospel of John, the raising of Lazarus as the only sign of Jesus' being a magician: 20: When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went and met him, while Mary sat in the house. 21: Martha said to Jesus, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22: And even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you." 23: Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24: Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 25: Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, 26: and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?" 27: She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, he who is coming into the world." 28: When she had said this, she went and called her sister Mary, saying quietly, "The Teacher is here and is calling for you." 29: And when she heard it, she rose quickly and went to him. 30: Now Jesus had not yet come to the village, but was still in the place where Martha had met him. 31: When the Jews who were with her in the house, consoling her, saw Mary rise quickly and go out, they followed her, supposing that she was going to the tomb to weep there. 32: Then Mary, when she came where Jesus was and saw him, fell at his feet, saying to him, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died." 33: When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled; 34: and he said, "Where have you laid him?" They said to him, "Lord, come and see." 35: Jesus wept. 36: So the Jews said, "See how he loved him!" 37: But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?" 38: Then Jesus, deeply moved again, came to the tomb; it was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39: Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of the dead man, said to him, "Lord, by this time there will be an odor, for he has been dead four days." 40: Jesus said to her, "Did I not tell you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?" 41: So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42: I knew that thou hearest me always, but I have said this on account of the people standing by, that they may believe that thou didst send me." 43: When he had said this, he cried with a loud voice, "Laz'arus, come out." 44: The dead man came out, his hands and feet bound with bandages, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Unbind him, and let him go." 45: Many of the Jews therefore, who had come with Mary and had seen what he did, believed in him; This is very impressive. This is certainly magic or at least would impress the people of the time as being magic. The question is what does Lazarus do after he is unbound and let go. Does he thank Jesus? Does he remember being dead? Does he tell Jesus he had mistakenly been taken for dead when he was really alive for four days? We never find out. Lazarus vanishes from the story as quickly as he appeared. The other oddity is that Mary and Martha do not both come out to greet Jesus together. Instead Martha goes first, and then Mary goes leading out the crowd. What happens to Martha? We may suppose that she beats Jesus, Mary and the crowd to the tomb, she has servants wrap her in bandages and places a cloth on her face to obscure her identify. Then she emerges from the tomb on Jesus' pre-arranged calling. It is a perfect scam. The only time when Jesus performs magic in the Gospel of John, it is set up in such a way as to suggest he is pulling a scam. I suggest that rather than appearing as a magician, the text of the gospel of John has Jesus appearing as a very clever man, but one totally devoid of supernatural or magical powers. This suggests that the original author was going for verisimilitude and some degree of truth in her writings. Warmly, Philosopher Jay

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03-18-2006, 09:07 PM	#54
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	But Jay, why do you avoid talking about the story of the fig tree? This story shows Jesus CURSING A TREE!!! JESUS ISSUES A CURSE!! AGAINST A FIG TREE!! BECAUSE THE TREE DID NOT HAVE FRUITS OUT OF SEASON,which would indicate the arrival of the Messiah,as it was written. There is NO WAY AROUND THAT ONE. IT IS A CURSE! And the tree dies! That sounds like Magic to me... Regarding the other "miracles " we were talking about before, FORTUNE TELLING is one of the MAGICAL ARTS, and so is ILLUSIONISM and MENTALISM...All this was not uncommon. Moses,Aaron, and Salomon were said to be great magicians of their time...

03-19-2006, 06:37 AM	#56
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	Jay and all, We are holding back ,for a moment, our judgement about the issue of Jesus existing or not, and we are looking into the possible origin and process of Jesus' alleged healing abilities. Ok,Jay, in all the other "miracles" you mention, it appears that Jesus did not do any ritual... Let's take a look at Mark 7, Mark 8 and John 9 www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark7.htm www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark8.htm www.usccb.org/nab/bible/john/john9.htm In all these cases Jesus performs a little ritual of spitting on the ground,making some mud or clay,smearing it over the persons eyes, and telling them to go wash. In one of the cases Jesus repeats the ritual a couple of times until the person regains all his sight. In other words, it is a progressive healing, and by repeating the same ritual the person got better and better. In one of the cases, Jesus grunts,spits on the persons mouth,and utters the word "Ephphatha", which means "Be opened!"... Back in those days the spit of a Rabbi was considered avery special thing... Jesus obviously learned these rituals from someone, from some tradition of healers...

03-19-2006, 07:21 AM	#57
Thomas II Veteran Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 8,254	My take is that Jesus learned within a group, for those years which have beed "deleted" from public knowledge purposefully by people who had their own agenda... From what I have gathered, Jesus was a Nazorean, which was a branch of the Essenes. Those interested can read something about this in: http://essenes.net/intro.htm I don't see Jesus as the Roman God he was made to be by Constantine and the Catholic Church. My understanding is that he was a Nazorean teacher, and a good one too...

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