Steven Carr

Is the 'mindset of the ancient world' such that people would hear voices and ascribe them to Jesus?

And then people would then put such revelations into a historical context?

Toto

How would you interpret this passage, Ben?

I know that the mindset back then did accept oracles and prophets who spoke for God, and we don't label that "insane" because that was the social norm.

My first inclination in reading this, however, is that the "thorn in the flesh, the messenger from Satan" is a metaphor for one of Paul's real life enemies, and Paul is slyly referring to his prayers to God to strike this man dead, which were not answered.

This passage is part of the letter where Paul "plays the fool" which has been analysed as incorporating elements from the Greco-Roman mime plays.

Or am I being too modern in my reading? Is there some standard (or non-standard) interpretation of this passage?

Ben C Smith

That is an intriguing suggestion, and I do not think I have heard it before. But I do not think the association in this chapter between weakness and flesh will support it; Paul makes it sound like a problem with his own flesh, his own weakness.

The (or at least a) usual interpretation of the thorn in the flesh, I think, is that it is some physical malady. (Some readers have interpreted it as a specific sinful impulse or inclination; Spong, for example, thinks or at least thought it was homosexual desire. But I never found the temptation hypothesis very convincing.)

This is not the only place where Paul associates weakness (he says he is boasting in his own weakness at this point of the epistle; 2 Corinthians 12.5) with the flesh (Romans 6.19; 8.3).

If the thorn is indeed a physical malady, it may be the same one mentioned in Galatians 4.13; indeed, the Greek of that text literally reads a weakness of the flesh! Various proposals have been made; some form of eye trouble has been suggested, based on Galatians 4.15.

But both (A) the link between 2 Corinthians 12.7 and Galatians 4.13 and especially (B) the actual identity of the affliction are a matter of speculation and conjecture. They are beyond proof or disproof.

The bit about the messenger of Satan is obviously metaphorical; it is the affliction personified. Paul is simply blaming the thorn on the great accuser, while admitting that God allowed Satan to inflict the thorn on him (much like God allowed Satan to inflict Job).

Ben.

Amaleq13

IIRC, some have suggested it was an illness such as epilepsy.

[cross-posted with Ben]

Ben C Smith

More information on the thorn in the flesh can be gleaned from The Boy With the Thorn in His Side, by the Smiths. J. Marr on the guitar, S. Morrissey with the vocals.

Ben.

Steven Carr

As metaphorical as the claims by Paul in the same passage to have received words from Jesus?

I guess all those words of the Lord in Paul's epistles are as 'obviously metaphorical' as the angel from Satan.

Paul claims to have gone to Heaven, been tormented with an angel from Satan and to have had revelations from Jesus.

Who knows what else this person could have dreamed up? Could he have dreamed up that Jesus appeared to 500 people?

Ben C Smith

You are not serious. You used to be serious (AFAICT). But now you are not.

What happened?

Ben.

Steven Carr

I'll take that as a yes, early Christians would just make up sayings from the Lord, just like they would personify things as being from 'angels from Satan', and made up going on day excursions to Heaven.

After all, we can see Paul doing it.....

Ben C Smith

Yes, I think early Christians sometimes (often?) made up dominical sayings or attributed already formed sayings to Jesus.

None of which has anything to do with what exactly the thorn in the flesh was. Do you think it was a literal thorn, Steven? Do you think Paul is claiming he got stuck on the business end of a rosebush? Or do you occasionally recognize figurative speech when you hear it?

My position exactly.

Whether in the body or out of the body Paul did not know — which again is consistent with ancient conceptions of the body, the spirit, and the cosmos.

But I doubt he had to make it up.

Ben.

Steven Carr

So if I say the CIA are a 'thorn in my side' by sending me radio messages through my toothbrush, nobody would think I was insane, because psychiatrists are trained to recognise figurative speech?

Some people just don't know what figurative language is or how it is used in conjunction with talking about real things.

Those people are a real pain in the neck.

Paul clearly saw himself as being attacked by Satan and he pleaded with Jesus.

And Jesus answered!

So why did Paul need a 'real' Jesus, when his imaginary friend helped him in his battles with Satan?