Steven Carr

2 Corinthians 12

To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness."

Paul thinks there was a messenger of Satan tormenting him, and he pleaded with Jesus to take it away from him.

And Jesus answered back......

Is this the writing of a sane person?

How do we know that there was 'oral tradition' from the earthly Jesus, when the earliest Christian writing we have is from a madman who was perfectly capable of writing down 'revelations from Jesus' about dealing with messengers from Satan?

Transient

Well I guess from a christian's pov it makes sense because they believe that demons exist etc. From an infidel's perspective the whole lot is rubbish - never the twain shall meet

DBT

I suspect that their own internal dialogue may have become compartmentalized to the extent that any 'replies' to questions or prays were perceived as çoming from an external source, Jesus, Angels, etc...rather than their own subconscious.

Ben C Smith

Is this the same Steven Carr who wrote so calmly and rationally on miracles and the book of Mormon? And whom apologists occasionally used to label as one of the better skeptics?

Whatever happened to that Steven Carr? And who is this pale phantom who has taken his place?

Ben.

Steven Carr

I guess Ben longs for the rationality of people who hear Jesus talking to them about putting up with messengers from Satan.

I wonder why this 'oral tradition', words from Jesus himself, never seemed to make it into the Gospels.

Perhaps all oral tradition was produced by people who spoke to Jesus , long after his death.

I have to confess that the passage does put a big spoke in the mythicist case.

Not only did Paul think Jesus was real, he also spoke to him.

Ben C Smith

No, I long for the rationality of people who understand something of the mindset(s) of the ancient world.

You have lost touch. Hence my lament.

Ben.

The Dagda

If you ask me most prophets were either slightly unbalanced by their fanaticism or all out crazy. Either that or they were indeed incredibly close to God.

They do say that those who are very old or insane are closer to God, I can see what they mean.

vid

My quess would be "tormented by messenger of Satan" meant Paul was horny (and maybe "three times" refers to masturbation, if we bring this forward). IMO it fits well into his opinion on lust for sex, expressed elsewhere. You can find christians refering to sexual desire and masturbation like that even today: I have read a website where priest literally called sexual desire "being tempted by satan" and said that while he masturbated he "himself nailed jesus at the cross".

Steven Carr

You mean, people who understand that lunatics who heard voices were just as prevalent then as they are today?

And that people had no qualms about writing stories in which people saw things in visions, dreams and trances and expecting other people to believe those visions, dreams and trances conferred real messages from a real Jesus?

Ben C Smith

I see my longing is destined to go unfulfilled here.

Ben.