lee_merrill

Hi everyone,

Well, this thread was based on taking the Bible accounts at face value. But the reason (reasons! I have more than just one) I believe the Bible, first I would mention fulfilled prophecy, a really fulfilled prophecy is good evidence for the supernatural, secondly, I would mention answers to prayer in my own life, the proof is in the pudding, thirdly, I would mention the historical record along with archaeology, they do bear out the Biblical accounts much more so than any other book with supernatural claims.

Now if for reasons such as these, I may trust the Biblical accounts, and then if there really was a ram there, caught by its horns, and the voice was heard next by both Abraham and Isaac, that's different than only one person hearing a voice themselves.

But I do believe thousands did die, and many by the edge of the sword, and that God even has the prerogative to determine the limit of a person's life, and that Hitler most certainly does not have that prerogative, much less the character to make such decisions.

Well, tests have been given: Does the voice speak in concert with what is known of God? In concert with the principles in Scripture? Does the spirit acknowledge that Jesus Christ came in the flesh (1 Jn. 4:2)? Is there supernatural confirmation, and not just hearing a voice again (Ex. 4:1-3; Jdg. 6:36-40)?

I do hold that God is in complete control, that he controls all that happens, for a good purpose. The motive is critical in determining sin here, if the motives are different, if God brings about a good outcome, and the person's motive was not a good motive, then we may distinguish here.

No, but the descriptions of the details in these accounts, the details that people are relating, may not be the actual way these incidents occurred.

Well, I'm not very sure what you are asking here...

I didn't mean every instance of believing inappropriately is rebuked specifically, though.

No, I'm not saying people don't feel pain.

If even pain can bring a good result, that could come in no other way, is this an incomprehensible position?

Do we not admire people who overcame evil, though it cost them in the process? Even because there was a cost involved? Overcoming evil without any pain or difficulty would indeed not be admirable.

And if there was essentially nothing to overcome, what would there be to reward?

Regards,
Lee

Biff the unclean

Jewish tradition says that Isaac heard nothing. The OT doesn't even mention him coming down from the mount.


In other words "Might makes right." Thousands of your fellow man are slaughtered and you turn your back on them and side with their destroyer. Where is the morality?

[qoute]I do hold that God is in complete control, that he controls all that happens, for a good purpose. The motive is critical in determining sin here, if the motives are different, if God brings about a good outcome, and the person's motive was not a good motive, then we may distinguish here.[/quote]
Make up your mind! You just said god had the "prerogative to determine the limit of a person's life" when refering to the slaughter of thousands of men, women & children. Why change your tune for a couple of children?

Yes, because your God is supposed to be ALL MIGHTY. Who is more powerful than He and can force Him to have no other options?

The problem isn't us admiring those who overcome evil. The problem is you admiring the creation of an evil which must be over come.

One of your neighbors wives just died of breast cancer. She had both her breasts amputated but was still in such agony that that she had to be constantly drugged to the point where she didn't know her family and she couldn't control her bowels.
How can you feel such contempt for her?

Wallener

As with most things, there are multiple Jewish traditions on this. Including one where Isaac is, indeed, sacrificied.

badger3k

Hi Lee,

There's a lot of threads on the lack of archaeological evidence to support the Bible, so you can look around for that data. However, what basis do you have to judge that the Bible account is accurate, especially since you say, a little further down:
Taken out of order, but you can go back to see that the context is still the same. If the details may not be the actual way that the incident occurred, how can you state that there was a voice, or a ram, or anything else?

Just to be clear, then you think it is ok for your God, acting through people, to kill thousands, including babies and pregnant women?

Considering He ordered the deaths of possibly thousands of babies and children, yeah, it does.
Mark:
7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
7:10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Sounds like her actions were in line with Scripture.
I don't see any relevance to this. If she says that she heard Jesus, or His Name, then that is further proof that she is telling the truth? And again, there was supernatural confirmation, as I said. Prove it wasn't.
Is He in complete control, or only in control of good actions? Since I'll be generous and think that you merely miswrote, what do you refer to here? Think carefully, since I also want to know if you consider the genocide to be a good thing.

Ok, let me try this way. You keep asking for signs. My question is, how do you know what a sign is. What if someone else says they can see a sign, but you can't. Are they wrong? What if it is several people, and you still can't see? What if you see something and no one else can? What is a sign that is clear to everybody - and can such a thing as a personal sign exist - something that appears to only one person and nobody else? If so, how do you disprove those?

Ok, then in other words it is an unreliable standard.

Biff the unclean

Which would explain why the book makes such a "big to do" about him climbing up the hill but doesn't mention him in the climb back down part.

John A. Broussard

I concur on the importance of prohecy. Now, could you give me one fulfilled, clear and uanmbiguous biblical prophecy which applies to an event of the 20th Century. I think most people who give any thought to such matters, would agree that extremely important events occurred in the past century.

In fact, I would say that historians are in substantial agreement that more good and bad things occurred in the past century than in any other during the other thousands of years of man's existence.

Did the bible predict--clearly and uanmbiguously--a single one of those events? If so, please tell me what it was and cite chapter and verse.

Thank you for taking time to answer my question.

BadBadBad

Thousands died. Many by the edge of the sword. God was in complete control. The purpose is listed. They were wicked, stiff necked and rebellious just like the Israelites. God commanded them killed by the edge of the sword for justice, vengeance, and to deliver the land, cattle, buildings, wells, olive yards and virgins as promised, just like we've been saying. The challenge I've presented is for you to judge the motive, purpose, and good outcome.

Joshua 10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

But you've now claimed that many did die just as the detailed accounts in the Bible describe.

Wallener

Not really. The different variants are all self-contained stories. Most probable reason is simply that Isaac is little more than a prop for a story about Abraham and G-d and doesn't deserve more screen time.

Anat

However, interestingly the story in Jewish tradition is named after Isaac. it is the Binding of Isaac, not the Testing of Abraham. And Isaac is portrayed as a man in his twenties or thirties, not a child. There is a version where Isaac asks his father to bind him tightly so that he won't prevent the sacrifice by involuntary movement.

Some interpretations by modern poet, Yehuda Amichai, of the Aqedah

Wallener

I love this bit from your link, Anat: