Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Switch89 · 12-30-2008, 10:41 AM

J.P. Holding interviewed about the Christ Myth Theory:
http://drcraigjohnson.net/VideoPlaylist/sermons.html

Someone should have sent him a wax kit for Christmas (for his arms).

Clivedurdle · 12-30-2008, 11:04 AM

I really do wish people attacking something would look at it properly!

It is quite simple, why is not Jesus a similar species to Hercules or Flash Gordon?

Is this not a mythical being?

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Christ of St John of the Cross

The Salvador Dali masterpiece Christ of St John of the Cross first went on show at Kelvingrove on 23 June 1952, and has ever since aroused admiration, criticism and controversy. The striking angle of the crucified Christ on the Cross, the eerie contrast of light and dark, and the magical and effortless surface effects all make an unforgettable impression on the viewer.

The strange title refers to Dali's principal inspiration for the painting - a pen and ink drawing made by the Spanish Carmelite friar who was canonised as St John of The Cross (1542–1591). The drawing intrigued Dali when he saw it preserved in the Convent at Avila, as it was made after the Saint had a vision in which he saw the Crucifixion as from above, looking down.

Dali proceeded to paint the Crucifixion set above the rocky harbour of his home village of Port Lligat in Spain, with the enigmatic addition of boats and figures copied from pictures by Velazquez and Le Nain.

http://www.glasgowmuseums.com/venue/...id=4&itemid=68

It is actually for proponents of an HJ to prove Jesus is not mythical and or fictional.

And don't start me on fish or the earliest representation that talks of the god jesus christ!

Doug Shaver · 12-31-2008, 07:08 AM

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Originally Posted by Switch89

J.P. Holding interviewed about the Christ Myth Theory:

I wouldn't mind watching an intelligent critique of the theory, but I know Holding isn't going to provide one.

Jim123 · 12-31-2008, 07:17 AM

This interview isn't much more than JPH attempting to discredit the first third of Zeitgeist and some of The God Who Wasn't There, which are apparently becoming popular with college kids. This popularity is seen as a clarion call by Holding and his cronies, who think that "something must be done" to counter this upstart movement and contrary way of thinking.

Brian63 · 01-01-2009, 06:10 AM

More of a BC&H topic than a GRD one.

Brian
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skepticdude · 01-01-2009, 03:08 PM

Holding does nothing more than refute the most easily refuted elements of the copycat thesis.

However, Holding does not answer the better objection:

While not perfect, the parallels still make Jesus look like any other dying and rising god-man of his day, and therefore, the idea that the gospel authors appear to have been influenced by the dying-rising-god motiff to beef up their descriptions of Jesus, so that he'd be a good contender in the first-century's selection of such stories, remains on the table and a rational option.

His uniqueness among god-men is a non-argument. Osiris was said to be cut up after death, i don't know of any other god-man stories which say the hero was cut up after death. Does Osiris's unique description somehow argue that he truly was revived?

No.

Mithras....born from a rock. I don't know any other god-man said to be born from a rock, but no Christian apologist thinks such unique claim does the least bit toward proving the story true.

So then, even granting that nobody else in Jesus' day was said to have come back from the dead in the precise way Jesus did, that bit of uniqueness does nothing to increase the factual probability of the case.

Then again, maybe we shouldn't even grant Jesus' uniqueness in resurrection, since there were previous stories of resurrected people in the Old Testament, and of course, the gospel authors minced no words in their efforts to demonstrate that Jesus was pre-figured in the Old Testament:

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1 Kings 17:17-22
17 Now it came about after these things that the son of the woman, the mistress of the house, became sick; and his sickness was so severe that there was no breath left in him.
18 So she said to Elijah, "What do I have to do with you, O man of God? You have come to me to bring my iniquity to remembrance and to put my son to death!"
19 He said to her, "Give me your son." Then he took him from her bosom and carried him up to the upper room where he was living, and laid him on his own bed.
20 He called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, have You also brought calamity to the widow with whom I am staying, by causing her son to die?" 21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, "O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child's life return to him."
22 The LORD heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived.

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2 Kings 4:32-35
32 When Elisha came into the house, behold the lad was dead and laid on his bed.
33 So he entered and shut the door behind them both and prayed to the LORD.
34 And he went up and lay on the child, and put his mouth on his mouth and his eyes on his eyes and his hands on his hands, and he stretched himself on him; and the flesh of the child became warm.
35 Then he returned and walked in the house once back and forth, and went up and stretched himself on him; and the lad sneezed seven times and the lad opened his eyes.

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2 Kings 13:20-21
20 Elisha died, and they buried him. Now the bands of the Moabites would invade the land in the spring of the year.
21 As they were burying a man, behold, they saw a marauding band; and they cast the man into the grave of Elisha. And when the man touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood up on his feet.

While only a metaphor, the resurrection of many people in Ezekiel is specifically fleshly (dead bones being given skin and muscles and life), and therefore, apologists cannot claim that the idea of a man coming back from the dead bodily was something new:

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Ezekiel 37:1-11
1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and He brought me out by the Spirit of the LORD and set me down in the middle of the valley; and it was full of bones.
2 He caused me to pass among them round about, and behold, there were very many on the surface of the valley; and lo, they were very dry.
3 He said to me, "Son of man, can these bones live?" And I answered, "O Lord GOD, You know."
4 Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.'
5 "Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life.
6 'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold, a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to its bone.
8 And I looked, and behold, sinews were on them, and flesh grew and skin covered them; but there was no breath in them.
9 Then He said to me, "Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they come to life."'"
10 So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
11 Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut off.'

The Old Testament parallels to bodily resurrection therefore justify skeptics who say the gospel authors, known already to see Jesus prefigured in various Old Testament stories, likely drew upon Old Testament resurrection stories and symbols in their efforts to show Jesus as a fulfillment of Old Testament themes and stories.

Let's also not forget Justin Martyr's acknowledgement of parallels between Jesus and other god-men, which testimony has scandelized apologists, who are busy attempting to say that the parallels skeptics cite are not close enough to be called parallels, while Justin's argument below depends on the parallels being close enough to show Jesus as at least equal with other god-men:

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Chapter XXI.-Analogies to the History of Christ.
And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth45 of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Aesculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Caesar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know. This only shall be said, that they are written for the advantage and encouragement46 of youthful scholars; for all reckon it an honourable thing to imitate the gods. But far be such a thought concerning the gods from every well-conditioned soul, as to believe that Jupiter himself, the governor and creator of all things, was both a parricide and the son of a parricide, and that being overcome by the love of base and shameful pleasures, he came in to Ganymede and those many women whom he had violated and that his sons did like actions. But, as we said above, wicked devils perpetrated these things. And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.

Chapter XXII.-Analogies to the Sonship of Christ.

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And if we assert that the Word of God was born of God in a peculiar manner, different from ordinary generation, let this, as said above, be no extraordinary thing to you, who say that Mercury is the angelic word of God.

But if any one objects that He was crucified, in this also He is on a par with those reputed sons of Jupiter of yours, who suffered as we have now enumerated. For their sufferings at death are recorded to have been not all alike, but diverse; so that not even by the peculiarity of His sufferings does He seem to be inferior to them; but, on the contrary, as we promised in the preceding part of this discourse, we will now prove Him superior-or rather have already proved Him to be so-for the superior is revealed by His actions. And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius.
-------------------
From Justin Martyr's book "First Apology of Justin" (THE ANTE-NICENE FATHERS translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to a.d. 325
The Rev. Alexander Roberts, D.D., and James Donaldson, LL.D., EDITORS AMERICAN REPRINT OF THE EDINBURGH EDITION revised and chronologically arranged, with brief prefaces and occasional notes by A. Cleveland Coxe, D.D. T&T CLARK Edinburgh Wm. B. Eerdmans publishing company Grand Rapids, Michigan.

GakuseiDon · 01-01-2009, 03:56 PM

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