Tyro

I repost this here, since I apparently posted it in the wrong forum earlier. I'm new here =)

According to Chrestians before Christians? An Old Inscription Revisited, by Erík Zara there is/was an inscription, dated to the life time of Antonia Minor (36 BCE - 37 CE), married to Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus between 16 BCE and 9 BCE. In the inscription a "Jucundus Chrestianus" is mentioned, presumably as the seller of his burial rights to the person the inscription is about. Since Chrestianus is not a known proper name, and Christians cannot be shown to have been called Christians before or during 37 CE, the author of the article says the inscription "has to refer to something else" than Christians or a proper name, but he "leave[s] the subject without further conclusions about the meaning of the word Chrestiani here". I guessed someone here could perhaps sort this out.

Who were the Chrestiani, or what can it mean, if it's not about a Christian?

DCHindley

If I have read what you wrote correctly, perhaps it is an allusion to the "usefulness" of Jucundus. My guess would be that Jucundus may have been a freedman of Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus or Antonia Minor. A patron-client bond was created after a manumission. When the buried party (was it NCDG or AM or someone else?) sought a memorial tomb in a specific spot, Jucundus the freedman volunteered to sell his own plot, for which his former master was grateful. Calling him "useful" ("Chrestus" was a common slave name, and does literally mean "useful") was not any sort of put down, but a term of endearment. Jucundus would not have been manumitted unless there had been a close bond even while he was a slave, and close bonds are related to usefulness.

DCH

Tyro

But why would a Greek term (if chrestianus is even a plausible rendering of the Greek chrestos) have been used regarding a Latin speaking freedman of the Roman Emperial family?

DCHindley

Jucundus also means "useful." I guess the inscription is just trying to be bi-lingual.

DCH

Tyro

Where do you find that the Latin word "jucundus" means "useful"? I have only found that it means "pleasant".

And even if Jucundus would have ment "useful" (which I do not think), doesn't this contradict your first statement, that "Jucundus the freedman volunteered to sell his own plot", and was thus called "useful"? "Useful" cannot be both a name and a denotation, in two languages, here. Then the inscription would say "Faustus bought the burial rights from useful useful", which is only odd, in my mind... But perhaps I have missed something.

Minimalist

The answer may be even simpler.

http://www.therthdimension.org/Ancie...omannaming.htm

Tyro

Jucundus Chrestianus is not three names though, and Chrestianus is not known as a name. What would be the base? Chrestus?

DCHindley

"Jucundus," is a Latin word meaning "agreeable" or "delightful," and ultimately from the Latin verb "juvare," meaning "to help."

jŭvo , jūvi, jūtum, 1 (juvaturus, Sall. J. 47, 2; Plin. Ep. 4, 15, 13:
I. iuerint, Cat. 66, 18 ), v. a. and n. [perh. root div-, to gleam; cf. dies] , to help, aid, assist, support, benefit (cf.: auxilior, subvenio, opitulor).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...try%3D%2325450

I am taking "Chrestianus" to come from
khrêstos , ê, on, ( [khraomai] ) of things,
A. like khrêsimos, useful, good of its kind, serviceable,
II. of persons, good, esp. in war, valiant, true: generally, good, honest, worthy; good [citizens], useful, deserving,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin...ry%3D%23114707

In English, "helpful" and "useful" are synonyms, and that is how I am looking at it. Besides, the article you linked to specifically says "Others believe that Chrestianus (perhaps deriving from the Greek word chrêstos, meaning good, useful, and service-able, which was a common name) was the person’s
proper name." I treated it as a nick-name.

Don't need to get all worked up.

DCH

Tyro

I'm sorry if I got "all worked up". It seems from the information you quoted, that jucundus and chrestos are not synonyms in Latin/Greek (I don't regard useful and helpful to be synonyms in English either). It is true that some scholars have said that Chrestianus here is a proper name, but then I guess this proper name would have been used elsewhere. Some scholars, as the article state, has also claimed this was not a proper name, but a reference to Christians.

DCHindley

I guess if that is what you are inclined to see here. But I am not at all surprised by oddball Roman naming conventions, especially among freemen.

If you were to ask me, usually it goes the other way. Any evidence that could - however remotely - be considered evidence of Christianity is touted as sure proof by a lot of scholars on both sides of the faith divide.

DCH