Withered

bfniii, please repsond to post number 168. Explain how your interpretation of gods character is somehow more valid than those that do not first presuppose the bible is in some way different from any other text.

You can not point to any evidence in the bible that indicates god has mercy, without also being able to point to evidence that shows his nature to be cruel.

You can only manage this if you first assume the bible to be somehow unique from other texts, which is not currently a verifiable position...
or you have to claim to have some sort of divine interpreter that reveals to you what the bible really means. This is also verifiable.

In the case of the latter, you then open up a can of worms in that other religions, or even sects of your own religion, have an equally valid point of view, even if they are in direct opposition to your belief.

So which is it? Some unknown force tells you that god is really a merciful god, and the rest of us just don't get it? Or you assume the bible is true thus not really applying any deductive efforts to it's claims.

By resolving this fundamental issue, you can finally lay to rest any claims about gods character that conflict with your version of christianity. You can then begin to unite all of the various sects under you banner as the one true church, no?
L.

bfniii

first, why is death immoral? why is God immoral for taking life that He created? second, explain why those particular people at that particular time in history at that particular time in their lives, did not deserve to die.



no, it's the nature of this existence and we choose to perpetuate it.



it being a good thing is not the issue. it being necessary to convert people in the manner you so choose is the issue. i have asked you for what seems like one million times: why do you insist on God being your puppet? why is the current amount of evidence we have not enough? how can you prove that even if you did get more, it would be wholly adequate?



you don't know that God withholds anything from any person who would commit to Him if they did hear it. it's impossible for any person to prove. it's just your unsupported conjecture.



i did defend it by pointing out that you have no standard by which you are attempting to make these judgments. it's more likely that you are making excuses for why you don't believe. if there is any person here at infidels who doesn't answer questions, it would be you. i have pointed out this behavior on many occasions, including this very thread. you also tend to repeat yourself, thus unnecessarily enlongating threads.



johnny, you are asking for miracles. they happen all the time. people are converted by them all the time. why do you need more of them? how many of them are there supposed to be?



it's not a lie. He doesn't want any to perish. we choose it. He respects our choice.



:rolling: you do realize that there are illusionists who can perform these tricks, right?



God is on trial? and who makes you a competent judge and jury?



you can't guarantee that. all you can do is give it lip service. you also can't guarantee that you would be unimpressed because illusionists can recreate those tricks.



why? for what purpose?



parents do not answer every question children ask.

bfniii

do you know who those passages are referring to specifically? do you know what they did in order to be the recipients of such a decree?

bfniii

i didn't say special, i said unique. whether i believe it is special or not [divine inspiration] is irrelevant to the issue of mercy or justice, it's a different topic which we can discuss as well. furthermore, your responses make no attempt to refute my statements regarding contradictions or divine inspiration other than blithe dismissal.



that is not my case. biblical verses were referenced by a biblical critic in an attempt to show that from those verses, God was unmerciful. i responded showing how that was mistaken. the justification i used were the same verses used in the criticism. moreover, the bible is not the only case that can be made. i have also referenced the ontological argument for God's existence.



i disagree. reason does indeed show that mercy is one of His qualities. the bible agrees, unless it is misinterpreted.



my statement was that we can know what He has revealed to us directly or through inference supplied to us be reason, an alleged God-given gift. it is not necessary to know every possible piece of information to know that.

bfniii

i disagree. can you provide an example?



i disagree. it is clearly demonstrable that the bible is a unique work among those available to us.

Withered

The fact that you believe the source text for the existence of your god is unique goes to the very heart of the issue at hand. You believe that god is merciful because you already buy into the bible in the first place. You are not reasoning, you are making exceptions to your reason, and making excuses so as not to disrupt the cognizant dissidence that you experience as a rational human being engaging in christianity.
referencing something does not make it relevant,(it does not indicate any characteristic of god), and it certainly does not make it true.
By the way, if you use the ontological argument to prove your god, and a hindu uses it to prove their god, and follower of thor uses it to prove thor's existence, what happens?
Reason shows that the god of the bible is a piece of fiction. Anything else is irrational. Insanity in some cases. To make the claim that any of us that are deconverts, or even reasonably literate, misinterpret the bible is both dishonest and offensive.
You relplied:
Yes i can. God punishes adam and eve for disobeying, before they are able to understand that disobeying is wrong. That is cruel, which will contradict any instance that you chose to point out as merciful. Any merciful act you can point out is immediately contradicted by the fact that not only did god punish adam and eve, but he knew all along that he would have to, then goes on to punish all of mankind forever.
if you believe that this line of discussion will help you to provide evidence for gods mercy, then by all means please demonstrate how the bible is different from any other text.

You have not given any evidence to support the claims that god is merciful. You say that i did not refute you. I do not have to refute you. I have to refute the bible, upon which your entire fantasy is built. That text upon which all of christianity stands is clear about the nature of god, and gods nature in the bible does not include mercy, kindness, common sense, or even maturity.
L.

DBT

Context?
In the context of a God of mercy and love such evil would not exist, yet alone be ordered, or condoned.

Jack the Bodiless

bfniii:
There is, of course, absolutely no factual basis for this statement.

...So why did you state it?

Kilgore Trout

So these can be done by an illusionist, but because some book says Jesus performed illusions, that is supposed to prove that he is god? :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
So we who claim the bible has contradictions are assumed wrong unless all possible possible explanations have been irrefutably proven incorrect. With this logic, your claim that Jesus is god is a false claim until all possible explanations to the contrary have been irrefutably proven incorrect. So is every other claim you make, like the bible being inspired.

A circular argument is always a fallacy. I'm not going to bother talking to someone that can't even figure that out.

Kilgore Trout

Anybody else notice how christians defend biblegod® the same way someone would defend a ruthless dictator?

Person 1: Saddam was a merciless, cold-blooded killer.
Person 2: No he wasn't
Person 1: But he killed thousands of people!
Person 2: How do you know they didn't deserve it?
.....
Person 3: Fearless Leader is god.
Person 4: He can't be god! He lives in luxury while his people starve and kills people just for sport.
Person 3: Who are you, as a mere human, to say how god can act? Why does he have to live by the rules that he gave us to follow? We're not god, he is.