Johnny Skeptic

God endorses unmerciful eternal punishment without parole. If mercy is anything, it is forgoing eternal punishment with parole even when justice, in this case, God's justice, requires it. Otherwise, mercy is meaningless. If God gave skeptics a parole in the next life, Christians would surely approve, but yet, they currently approve of God's endorsement of eternal punishment without parole. Do Christians actually have any opinions of their own?

What could possibly be more merciful than forgoing eternal punishment without parole?

TonyN

Dear Johnny,
I am a Christian and I and many many thousands do not believe that God is going to eternally punish all mankind. We believe this because we have Scriptural support. Did you know that in the 1800's that the Christians who believed God will save all mankind was the 6th largest church in America?

Aionios never carried the idea of unendingness. The Greek word behind the mistranslated word "eternal" in many bibles is "aionios." Anglicized it is "eonian." It is just an adjective which is derived from the noun "eon."

It just has the duty of informing us of that which pertains to the eon or eons.
So in Matthew 25:46 where it is improperly translated "eternal punishment" this should be "eonian punishment" which is the punishment pertaining to that eon which happens to last 1000 years. And this punishment is concerning Nations, not an individual who did not give a cup of water to one of Jesus' brethren.

I have received many hateful responses from other Christians over this matter because it destroys their whole paradigm of a God that eternally tortures people.

Here are some simple examples of adjectives and their corresponding nouns:

America = noun
American = adjective
Bush is the American president. His presidency pertains to America.

Heaven - noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel pertains to heaven.

Eon = noun
Eonian = adjective
And these shall go away into eonian chastening yet the just into eonian life" (Matt.25:46 Concordant Version).
Both the chastening and the life of the respective nations is pertaining to the eon (1000 years in duration.)

Since it is your premise that God is not merciful if there is an eternal punishment withot parole, it must be that God is merciful since God will not eternally torture anyone.

Tony

sharon45

Tony, as I have already said, the gospels don't agree with you on this. As I gave before matthew 7:21-23 and I can also give matthew 13:24-30 among others.

sharon45

How do you get the idea of nations from this?

If this were true, what is the point of the just getting a thousand years of life and what happens after that? Besides, how is a thousand years of torture suppose to be merciful?

douglas

Jesus himself describes how "merciful" an angry God can be in the parable of the wedding banquet...

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the...t22_01-02.html

TonyN, this parable specifically refutes your notion that God will save everyone. He will only save those who willing come to him. Even those who are compelled to come, will not be allowed to stay unless they are "clothed" properly in the good deeds of a proper christian life.

TonyN

Tony's reply:
Mat 25:32 and in front of Him shall be gathered all the nations. And He shall be severing them from one another even as a shepherd is severing the sheep from the kids.
The nations, which most likely are represented by one or more representatives like we do in the United Nations, will be present before Christ when He returns to judge them as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation.


Tony's reply:
First of all, Sharon, there is not 1000 years of torture. It is chastening (kolasin in Greek.) Kolasin was always used as a remedial thing to the Greeks. So it is "kolasin eonian." It is not that one just gets 1000 years of life but that the nations that treated Christ's brethren well will get to enjoy the kingdom life of that 1000 years. They will enjoy the benefits of the kingdom. If Russia treats Christ's brethren well then the nation of Russia will enjoy 1000 years of blessings.
1000 years of torture is not merciful. It is 1000 years of chastening which is being ruled by an iron club (which is also highly figurative.)

And as I have already said, God saving all does work perfectly well with Matthew 7:21-23 and 13:24-30.

Mat 7:21 Not everyone saying to Me 'Lord! Lord!' will be entering into the kingdom of the heavens, but he who is doing the will of My Father Who is in the heavens. Many will be declaring to Me in that day, 'Lord! Lord! Was it not in Your name that we prophesy, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name do many powerful deeds?'" (Matthew 7:21,22).

The kingdom of the heavens will be set up on the earth and will be inaugurated when Christ returns. This is not about "going to heaven."

There will come a day when all mankind, much later, will all acclaim Jesus Christ is Lord and it will be to the glory of God, the Father (Philippians 2:8-11). Remember, Sharon, no one can say "Jesus is Lord except by holy spirit" (1 Cor.12:3) especially when it is not done in hypocrisy as in Matthew 7:21,22. The holy spirit is in all mankind at the juncture of the Philippian passage.

Mat 13:24-30 Another parable He places before them, saying "Likened was the kingdom of the heavens to a man sowing ideal seed in his own field." (25) Yet, while the men are drowsing, his enemy came and sows darnel over amidst the grain, and came away." (26) Now, when the blade germinates and produces fruit, then appeared also the darnel." (27) Now, approaching, the slaves of the householder said to him, 'Lord, do you not sow ideal seed in your field? Whence, then, has it darnel?'" (28) Now he averred to them, 'A man, an enemy, does this.' Now the slaves are saying to him, 'Do you, then, want us to come away that we should be culling them?'" (29) Yet he is averring, 'By no means, lest at some time, while culling the darnel, you should be rooting up the grain at the same time with it." (30) Leave both to grow up together until the harvest, and in the season of the harvest I shall be declaring to the reapers, 'Cull first the darnel, and bind them into bundles to burn them up. Yet the grain gather into my barn.'"

This parable is concerning the time before the 1000 years is set up. When Christ comes back He will thrust out of the kingdom all doing lawlessness and they will enter into a furnace of fire (a highly figurative usage of fiery trials). When Israel was held captive in Egypt for 400 years the Bible says she was in an iron furnace. Was there literal fire? Was all of Egypt on fire for 400 years? Did anyone get burnt?

xaxxat

Oh, great... more fucking preaching.

TonyN

Tony's reply:
That's funny, I didn't know the Bible had such glaring contradictions in it. God says He will save all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4 because Christ ransomed all mankind (1 Tim.2:6) and yet you say you have found a passage that contradict that. My my my. Douglas, Luke 24:16 does not say "wedding banquet" as you suggest. It is only about a man making a great dinner and inviting guests to it. Some cannot come. Others do. The parable (and that is all it is) is about being a disciple of Christ.

Douglas, believe me when I tell you, and if you cannot believe me at least believe God: God will have all mankind to be saved. Bank on it.
Make that your major thesis rather than judgment verses. Everything will fall in place. God is not some great diabolical monster who is going to eternally torture people.

TonyN

Quit preaching at me! :devil1:

douglas

This is a very .... (ahem!).... creative interpretation of this parable. TonyN, have you ever played a game called Balderdash! You should. You'd be very good at it.

You might also consider that this parable means exactly what it says: God lets the non-believers (ie. the weeds) live amongst the believers (ie. the grain) on earth, but will eventually sort us out in heavan and send us non-believers to hell (ie. burns them up).

Are you suggesting that "fire" in this parable is intended as a figurative representation indicating that non-believers will be enslaved for all eternity instead of tortured?