Vinnie

http://www.christusvictorministries....?TOPIC_ID=2596

As Boyd wrote:

Paul Eddy and I are writting a book on this right now (tentatively titled The Jesus Dilemma: Myth, History and Christ). The best arguments they have, I believe , are....

1) Judaism of the first century was thoroughly hellenized, hence open to myth-making.
2) Miracles are always so improbable that it is always more reasonable to assume there's a natural explanation than not.
3) there are parallels to the Christ-myth.
4) Paul says very little about the historical Jesus. He never quotes him, even in areas where doing so would help his cause. This suggest that Jesus was for Paul merely a heavenly savior figure, not a recent historical person.
5) no non-christian sources mention Jesus, and we would expect them to if Jesus was like the gospels portray him.
6) the gospels are anonymous, late, and unreliable.

How is Boyd going to "take to task" numbers 2, 5 and 6? LOL

Vinnie

GakuseiDon

On (5), JP Holding has asked which non-christian sources would we have expected to have mentioned Jesus? Can anyone suggest any, and why they would have mentioned Jesus?

Maybe this such be its own thread.

Peter Kirby

As a mythicist, I concluded that the only argument from silence that would be worth anything substantial, in the documents that are preserved to us, would be Josephus. Authenticity is of course 'hotly contested' in that case. But if you can prove 'total interpolations' for Josephus, I will respect an argument from silence as providing some evidence. If you're talking about non-Christian people other than Josephus, that dog won't hunt. The Christian statements and silences are of paramount importance, and should be the deciding factor for any historian.

best,
Peter Kirby

godfry n. glad

Not even Philo, from his vantage point in Alexandria?

godfry

Peter Kirby

I would buy Philo if he discussed any other particular popularizing Jewish figure of Palestine, such as Honi "Who Drew Circles in the Dust--Proof of History for Lewis" or Hanina ben Dosa or the famous Hillel, or for that matter any of the rabbis, but he doesn't. Philo writes in a thoroughly Hellenistic (not Judean) tradition, mostly for others who are philosophically or exegetically inclined, Jewish or pagan, on the allegorical interpretations of scripture. Philo writes no history of the Jews in his extant works, but has a single letter of advocation to the mad man Gaius about setting up a statue in Jerusalem, which mentions the Roman prefect Pilate. The execution of Jesus, if it was big news in Alexandria in 40 CE, which it wasn't, would not have been a miscarriage of justice to Philo, any more than the two robbers next to him. Christianity didn't reach Alexandria at this time (30s and early 40s) unless you believe fourth century patristic speculation about the lives of the apostles; no mention of a mission to Egypt is in Acts. No, that dog won't hunt, unless we are talking about a 3 hour global darkness--but arguing with fundies gets old, as I'm sure you will agree.

best,
Peter Kirby

Vinnie

Peter, the silence would be a problem for Boyd because he believes in the three-hour darkness, the feeding of 4k and 5k and on and on and on.

But he may have some wiggle room because the only problem is what non-xian sources are we talking about? Jo and Tac mention him. The Philo argument has always been lacking and so on.

Why is Josephus reference important anyway? Doesn't Doherty think Jesus-history started towards the end of the first century? The James passage is consistent in Doh's view. The reconstructed TF might present some problems but reconstructing the TF is problematic enough itself and Doh can say its what Jo got from Christians at the time. What possible line of transmission is there for the TF? This is why I find the shorter reference more important than the longer reference.

Back to the epistle and early silence in Xian docs? Seems to be the key issue. But even if there was a silence in the epistles, sayings, parables and miracle lists were circulated about Jesus from an early date.

Vinnie

Steven Carr

Whay does Judaism have to be Hellenised to be open to myth-making?

John Kesler has recently written the following

The following comes from http://tinyurl.com/paz8 :

Breisheet II: Adam, Eve, and the Serpent:

R. Jeremiah ben Eleazar said: When the Holy One created Adam, He created him hermaphrodite [bisexual], as is said, "Male and female created He them . . .
and called their name Adam."(Genesis 5:2

R. Samuel bar Nachman said: When the Holy One created Adam, He made him with two fronts; then He sawed him in half and thus gave him two backs, a back
for one part and a back for the other part.

Someone objected: But does not Scripture say, "And He took one of his ribs (mi-tzalotav)" (Genesis 2:21)?

R. Samuel replied: Mi-tzalotav may also mean "his sides," as in the verse "And for the second side (tzela) of the Tabernacle." (Exodus 26:20)

"And man became an animal being" (Genesis 2:7). R. Judah said: These words teach us that He first provided him with a tail like an animal, but then removed it from him for the sake of human dignity.

"And the Lord God created man "afar" (dust) (Genesis 2:7). R. Judah bar Simon said: Read the word "ofer" "a young man;" Adam was created as a young man, in the fullness of vigor.

R. Eleazar son of R. Simeon added: Eve also was created fully developed.

[Even more precise], R. Yochanan said: Adam and Eve were created as at the age of twenty.

"But for Adam there was not found a helpmeet for him." (Genesis 2:20) For God had caused all cattle, beasts, and birds to pass before Adam in pairs [male and female].

Said Adam: Every one has a mate, yet I have none!

And why did God not create a mate for Adam at the beginning?

Because the Holy One foresaw that Adam would bring charges against Eve. Therefore He did not create her until Adam expressly asked for her. As soon as he did, at once "God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept."(Genesis 2:21)

R. Eleazar further stated: What is meant by the Scriptural text, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh?"

This teaches that Adam had intercourse with every beast and animal but found no satisfaction until he cohabited with Eve.


-------------------------------
Judaism has always been prone to myth-making.

Vorkosigan

Vinnie,

Thiessen and Merz buy Mara Bar Serapion as a non-Christian source confirming the HJ. Do you have a copy??

Vorkosigan

Peter Kirby

My guess is that Mara (in c. 200) wrote well after the rise of Xianity to pagan attention and so everyone knew who he was talking about, just like modern apologists do. It's an allusion. It's a letter, not even necessarily an epistle, and the recipient would be grooving it.

best,
Peter Kirby

lpetrich

Here's his full text on that subject:

All he said was that the Jews got in trouble for killing their "wise king". Without going into details on who he was.

His other two cases, Pythagoras and Socrates, are rather grossly in error. Samos was not covered by sand after rejecting Pythagoras, and Athens did not suffer from a plague after executing Socrates. Athens did suffer from a big plague during the Peloponnesian War, which Socrates lived through, and Mara bar Serapion may have reordered the events into a more edifying sequence.

So in my opinion, Mara bar Serapion is useless as a source on the historical Jesus, if there was one.