punk77

I am in a debate with a fundamentalist minister about 7th/1st day Sabbath observance. He writes 'No dispute appears to have existed during the first three centuries about the first day Sabbath.'

Anybody know different?

This is my first post. I have been looking at this site for about a year and I would like to thank all the posters (too numerous to thank individually- but JohnnySkeptic seems to stick out) who have contributed to my education on matters religious. These posters might think that they are just answering a post but lots of people are actually following them and their answers educate more people than the actual posters. I have tried to understand lots of it by myself but to all these people that have put religious obfuscation into plain english I thank you. Also those thiests who have put forward their own views in plain english I thank you also(helpmaboab seems to stick out in this catagory ).

Also Matt MacCarthy for ignoring my swearing and giving me a straight forward answer to my question :angel:. Sorry about the swearing:banghead: .

mikem

I am curious to know what is behind this dispute? Oh, and welcome from a fellow Brit by the way!
My guess would be that he is trying to argue either that (a) the early Christians rejected Judaistic practices from the start, because Jesus Xtainity superceded Christianity, or (b) Jesus was supposed to have risen form the dead on the first day of the week, and so that is when his followers met everafter, and this is evidence for the resurrection, or maybe both.

The only text I could find in the NT for meeting on the 1st day of the week is Acts 20:7. Revelation 1:10 refers to the Lord's Day, but does not tell us what day it is. There may be other references, but I'm not sure that they would help us to establish anything historically. Although Acts purports to be history, it is really just a continuation of Luke, and it's main purpose is propagandistic, to portray the growth and development of the early church as being a steady and progressive expansion under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Luke is writing to justify a particular theological development known as proto orthodoxy, and so says very little of the conflicts that existed, and which can be gleaned from other writings in the NT, particularly Paul. Luke/Acts was written a long time after the events it purports to report. I think by the time that Acts was written most Christians would have been non Jews, and the notion of Sabbath keeping alien to them. Acts would have reflected the practice at the time.

However,since the first followers of Jesus were Jews, they would have continued to keep the Jewish Sabbath.* The gospels, written much later read back into Jesus life the later debates about the Sabbath that must have arisen between Jesus Jewish followers, and the non Jews who later became Xtians. If Acts is to be believed, the Apostles continued to worship in the Jewish way, going up to the Temple "at the hour of prayer" (Acts 3:1). It is not unreasonable to assume that they continued to worship on the Sabbath.

However, it seems reasonable to accept that Acts is telling us the truth when it says the believers met on the first day of the week - we just cannot say when they started doing this.

I would think that it was certainly the norm by AD96, when Pliny the Younger wrote his famous letter to Trajan asking for advice about handling Christians. He describes them as meeting on a specific day as follows.

They asserted, however, that the sum and substance of their fault or error had been that they were accustomed to meet on a fixed day before dawn and sing responsively a hymn to Christ as to a god, and to bind themselves by oath, not to some crime, but not to commit fraud, theft, or adultery, not falsify their trust, nor to refuse to return a trust when called upon to do so. When this was over, it was their custom to depart and to assemble again to partake of food--but ordinary and innocent food. Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations. Accordingly, I judged it all the more necessary to find out what the truth was by torturing two female slaves who were called deaconesses. But I discovered nothing else but depraved, excessive superstition.

I have often wondered why they would have to meet before dawn. It may be because they didn't want to draw attention to themselves, or it may be because many of them may have been slaves, and would not have been able to meet at any other time. In any event, it does not appear that they kept any kind of Sabbath!

And of course, it goes without saying that just because the believers thought that Jesus was raised from the dead, and they honoured him by worhipping on the day of the week it was supposed to happen, is not evidence of anything other than their belief.

* This is of course assuming that Jesus existed and formed a group of disciples. Others on this forum who do not accept even this will give you a different account no doubt.

punk77

Today 02:02 PM
Thanks for the welcome. :wave:

The minister is arguing that early christians observed the Sunday/1st day Sabbath from the begining and that they only went to services on the Saturday/7th day Sabbath to debate/argue with the Jews. I am trying to find out if there is any record of the early christians debating amongst themselves about what day was the proper sabbath and if they should keep both 7th/1st day Sabbaths or if they were released from observing the 7th day Sabbath? Or if any christian communities continued to observe the 7th day Sabbath?

Also if there is any record of the Apostles approving of the 1st day Sabbath over the 7th day Sabbath and telling followers to ignore the 7th day Sabbath.

John Kesler

Paul says that the Sabbath, along with the rest of the old covenant, is no longer binding on Christians:

See also Galatians 3:23-25 which refers to the law as a "disciplinarian" (KJV says "schoolmaster") which verse 25 says Christians are no longer subject to.

Acts 20:7 indicates that the first day of the week was the day that the disciples met to "break bread."

mikem

Paul certainly did. Acts 18:4. However, there were many Christans who no doubt kept the sabbath as a day of worship. If Galatians 4:10 is anything to go by, whole churches did, and that's why Paul was forever writing letters, to stop his converts from behaving like Jews. It was a major source of dissent between Paul and the Jerusalem leadership, which Luke glosses over, but Paul gives us a truer picture of the bitter theological struggle going on.

See above.

Yes, the Ebionites. Look them up, they're an interesting bunch. They kept the Jewish law, and thought Paul was an apostate.

None that I'm aware of apart from Paul. There is a a writing called The Didache, or the teaching of the apostles, that contains a chapter about how to keep the Eucharist "on the Lord's Day". See http://www.christianorigins.com/

Amaleq13

Perhaps a connection with either the timing in the Gospels of the discovery of the empty tomb or the resurrection, itself.

Chili

Saterday sabbath would be in anticipation of the arrival of the seventh day which according to Gen. 1 is the day on which evening did not follow the day. The seventh day is when the celestial light illuminates our day wherefore evening does not follow on this holy day when Christ is the light for Christians. This would make it normal for Jews to have sabbath on Saterday as their seventh day while Christians must celebrate Sunday as the seventh day.

It is just an archetypal necessity that is solidified with Easter being the day on which evening did not follow and is therefore celebrated for 2 consecutive days as if evening never followed.

Naturally this is NT stuff as distinct from the OT. So really, the contradiction also exist in having Sunday as the first day of the week as we see on protestant calenders today.

Lugubert

80% of all Swedes belong (formally, at least) to the Protestant (Evangelical Lutheran) Church of Sweden.

100% of all Swedish calendars have Monday as the first day since 1973.

Chili

Good for you (most of Europe does, I think). Americans made Sunday the first day of the week so they can show the rest of the world that in Gods country we put God first.

punk77

Thanks for the link. I have had a quick look but I reckon that it will a while to go through it properly.

I am just about to do a google search on 'Ebionites'. Thanks for that info too.