neilgodfrey

I don't see any either-or here. It was a standard trope for a god in his glory to pass by his devotees. Apollo did exactly that to Jason and his fellow "argonauts" too. The deity's glory is always fleeting.

There are many reasons for thinking Mark was drawing on a cluster of narratives from the Elijah-Elisha saga and the example you give from 1 Kings 19 is just one of them. So I don't know if you're thinking you are negating my literary analysis of the gospel or what.

The significance of the passing by motif in the Gospel of Mark must be primarily assessed within the context of the gospel itself. There is, as I pointed out, an evident regular pattern there. If this were the only pattern, the only example of reuse, then it would mean nothing. But it needs to be seen in the context of the way Mark repeats certain types of images throughout the gospel. And in Mark Jesus' glory is something that is hidden from the world, even from his disciples for most part. But the patten of the idea of a disciple following as he passes by or goes ahead is the point that needs to be addressed.

By the way, you have taken something of mine and turned it into an argument primarily about Mark being fiction. Fine if you want to do that, but that was not my intent in writing the piece originally. Whether Mark's gospel is fiction or history, even whether Jesus is mythical or historical, I find to be a generally boring and fruitless argument. I'm much more interested in exploring the nature and provenance of the earliest evidence we have for Christianity. The question of Christian origins is much more fascinating and worthwhile than whether one can prove some person or persons really existed or not. To take my posts as "arguments for fiction" is putting your own slant on them and removing them from mine. Whether they can be used as arguments for fictional character of the gospel is a side-effect maybe, but it is not my interest or intent, as I've explained many times before.

So perhaps your posts addressing "superior skeptic Neal Godfree" are misdirected. Why, I don't know.

Neil Godfrey

neilgodfrey

[QUOTE=neilgodfrey;5421131]One more critical point to note, is that the passage on which Mark's calling pericopes are surely based, the passage of Elijah's calling of Elisha (1 Kings 19:19-20), is the one that establishes the "passing by" image. Elijah comes to Elisha, drops his coat on him, and it is left for Elisha to run after him.

The "passing by" image is tied to the "follow me" implication from the very foundation of the Markan passages.

JoeWallack

JW:
http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_1

JW:
Did "Mark" intend this to be understood as a primarily accurate historical interaction? The first consideration here is does 1:14-15 provide background knowledge of Jesus for Simon and Andrew? I think not but it is possible. If so, than what I say next still stands but is diluted.

Note that in the direct interaction Jesus only says one sentence to them and they immediately leave their livelihood to follow Jesus. It is unlikely that "Mark" meant this to be taken literally for the following reasons:

1) Simon and Andrew probably knew nothing of Jesus at the time at the Textual level.

2) Jesus says one sentence to them.

3) Jesus' sentence is figurative.

4) They are kind of busy at the time.

5) Jesus is some distance from them.

6) They give up their livelihood to follow Jesus.

7) They immediately follow Jesus.

8) They don't say anything in response.

Note that it is easy to find the Literary reason for "Mark" to provide a Fictional description of the first meeting:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_4

"Mark's" contrived supposed first meeting between Jesus and Simon has the following advantages in making a Literary connection between the first meeting and the key Disciple parable in "Mark":

1) Fewer words emphasize the word connection of "straightway".

2) The non-conversational setting emphasizes the initial willingness to follow Jesus.

3) The lack of thought on the part of Simon and Andrew emphasizes the initial willingness to follow Jesus.

4) The willingness to give up their current lives emphasizes the initial willingness to follow Jesus.

In summary we have the following reasons to think that "Mark" did not intend "First Contact" to be an accurate historical encounter of the 3rd day kind:

1) The immediate decision of Simon and Andrew to follow is not supported by evidence they had at the Textual level.

2) 1) has a demonstrated Literary reason for it's presentation.

Related to this specific story is the issue of the same story found in Marcion and orthodox "Luke", who both try to exorcise the Fiction from "Mark". Who's first meeting story is more likely the copied original?



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

gstafleu

Yes, and the disciples aren't very good at this following. That, I think, is what this passage demonstrates, more than that the disciples are off in a boat to nowhere (although that could certainly be a subtext).

Before this passage Jesus has been busy showing the disciples "how it is done," without too much success. Hence the at first blush rather non-sequitur bit about "they had not understood about the loaves, because their heart was hardened." With the loaves Jesus had shown that handing out spiritual wisdom (fishing for men) does not diminish the store of that wisdom. They didn't get it, just as they didn't get how to reach the house of fishers (for men): Jesus overtakes them even without the aid of a boat in which to cross the stormy waters.

Gerard Stafleu

neilgodfrey

This interpretation is strongly supported, I think, with reference to the passage in 1 Kings about the call of Elisha by Elijah, which is surely a source for the calling of the disciples. Elijah makes his call as he is passing by and it is left for Elisha to run after him.

Neil

JoeWallack

JW:
http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_3

JW:
"Mark's" Jesus' accusers here are "the scribes that came down from Jerusalem" (οἱ γραμματεῖς οἱ ἀπὸ Ἱεροσολύμων καταβάντες). Jesus makes a figurative statement here that those who do the will of God are Jesus' real family. As usual in the Ministry of Jesus section, Jesus possesses the emotion, has the last word and silences the opposition, which all reverses in the Passion.

"Mark's" Jesus refers to scribes who had come from Jerusalem one more time:

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_7

JW:
"Mark" often uses the same or very similar phrases to connect stories. Here the connection is the scribes who came from Jerusalem (τῶν γραμματέων ἐλθόντες ἀπὸ Ἱεροσολύμων). Presumably the exact same ones.

Note that in the first story above Jesus dishonors his mother by ignoring her. A direct violation of a direct commandment yet no complaint from the Jerusalem scribes who not only are the official commandment experts but also are on a specific mission to find fault with Jesus.

In the linked story Jesus accuses the scribes of ignoring the commandment to honor your father and mother. Jesus specifically uses the example of avoiding having to support your parents which ironically and hypocritically is exactly what he is creating with his ministry. The judgment of Jesus in the second story, not honoring your parents, is exactly what Jesus is guilty of in the related first story with the same hostile audience (Jerusalem scribes) who have nothing to say about it. ReMarkable.

Perhaps the most ironic touch is the related penalty that "Mark's" Jesus mentions "He that speaketh evil of father or mother, let him die the death". Was "Mark" making fun of Jesus here and this was an ironic justification for Jesus' death?

In any case, what is likely is that this is not mere fiction. It is High Fiction.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_8

JW:
At the Text (Character) level through 8:33 Jesus' Audience is the Disciples. At 8:34 Jesus explicitly includes "the multitude" in his audience. Jesus' explanation to this combined audience is probably Fictional for the following reasons:

1) At 8:26, the man that Jesus taught to see clearly, is instructed by Jesus not to enter the Village. In the next sentence Jesus enters the Village. An Entertaining introduction to the story.

2) At 8:27, Jesus' Mission to take Jerusalem starts at Caesarea Philippi. The historical Roman conquest to take Jerusalem per Josephus starts at Caesarea Philippi.

3) At 8:34 "called unto him the multitude" is probably a Literary device.

4) At 8:34 "take up his cross" would not mean much/anything at the Text level since the characters have not been introduced to it. The meaning would be at the Sub-text (Reader) level. The Disciples were at least told that Jesus would be killed. The multitude was not.

"Mark's" general theme is clear that Jesus was intentionally unclear about his Ministry but intentionally clear about his Passion. The specifics in this story confirm Jesus' intention to be clear here "he spake the saying openly". Clearly "Mark" wants someone to understand.

5) Starting at 8:34 the multitude would not know what Jesus was talking about here "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me" since it is applicable to Disciples and not Civilians. Since this instruction, obtaining Eternal Life, is presumably the most important in "Mark", "Mark" wants the instruction understood. Since the multitude could not understand it at the Text level, "Mark's" intent must be for it to be understood at the Sub-Text level. "The Multitude" is not historical. It is the Reader.

6) 8:35 has a Jesus saying with extreme Ironic contrast.

7) 8:38 is clearly Fiction since it is Impossible. Presentation of clear fiction, even if believed by the author, shortens the distance to intentional fiction.

8) The instruction here is probably the most important in "Mark" and occurs about mid-way through looking like a contrived Placement.



Joseph

STORY, n.
A narrative, commonly untrue. The truth of the stories here following has, however, not been successfully impeached.


http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_13

Apologists claim that this is only an editorial comment and than try to handwave away the problem. But there's no way to see it other than "Mark's" Jesus talking to his audience at the Text level but communicating with the author's audience at the Sub-text level = Fiction. Note that "Matthew" who tends to follow "Mark" the closest, also has the reference to the Reader. If we look at "Luke" though:

http://www.textexcavation.com/synabomination.html

who is trying the hardest to move away from Paul/"Mark's" revelation source to claimed historical source, we see that the reference to the Reader has been exorcised. Understand dear Reader?



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php/Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
At ErrancyWiki I am in the process of documenting "Mark's" extreme literary style http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Literary_Style which is evidence of intentional fiction. The objective student will note that in "Mark" everything and everyone, including Jesus, is bent to the will of the literary structure. The categories of style I have so far are:

1) Structure

2) Communications - text vs. sub-text

3) Use of transliteration



Joseph

http://errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack

JW:
Inventory so far of "Mark's" use of intentional fiction:

1) Presentation of names:

Mark's DiualCritical Marks. Presentation Of Names As Evidence Of Fiction

2) The theme of the disciples "following" Jesus.

3) The use of numbers.

4) The story of the Jews washing their hands with fists.

5) Extreme irony.

6) The story of taking up your cross (before the cross had been taken up).

7) Use of "Let the reader understand".

8) Balanced but contrasting structure.

9) Communications at Text versus Sub-text level.

10) Use of transliteration as code.



Joseph

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page