Freethought & Rationalism Archive

krosero · 12-07-2006, 10:20 PM

Can anyone tell me to whom the argument belongs that Josephus originally wrote, "the brother of Jesus, son of Damneus," in Antiquities 20? Where is the idea published (internet or otherwise)?

I know the idea is not Doherty's, but that's all I know about it.

Kind thanks,
Kevin Rosero

Toto · 12-07-2006, 10:29 PM

I think that Michael Turton, who posts here as Vorkosigan, came up with the idea and discussed it on these boards a while back. I don't know if he was the first to think of it.

"called Christ" ONLY was added to Ant. 20.200.

krosero · 12-07-2006, 11:02 PM

Toto, thanks for the link and such a quick reply. I remember digging up that thread last year and finding it fascinating, but I'd long since forgotten it.

I'm still be interested in hearing where others first heard this argument.

Perhaps Vork can shed some light on where the argument came from?

Kevin Rosero

Vorkosigan · 12-08-2006, 12:21 AM

I thought of it independently, but the original idea goes back to the '30s, I found out later. Can't remember who first spotted it, but I've seen it referenced.

Michael

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2006, 12:47 AM

Looking at the original thread, might Jesus called Christ mean Jesus the Perfumer?

Malachi151 · 12-08-2006, 02:57 AM

There isn't much to come up with, its right there in the text. I would think that everyone who reads it would see this.

My view on this, which I discussed with Carrier, was that the text is not an interpolation at all, its just that Jesus son of Damneus was also called Christ, after all this just means anointed one and was used in the Old Testament texts to refer to kings or highly pious people.

To me this makes sense because it says that they are giving the high priesthood to Jesus son of Damneus, and you would give it to someone who is highly pious.

I mentioned it to Carrier, but he said that he has proof that its an interpolation, and he is going to be publishing a paper to that effect "soon", so we shall see.

One mark against my theory is that Josephus doesn't use the word anywhere else, nor does he explain the term, so this would support the interpolation argument I suppose.

Clivedurdle · 12-08-2006, 05:44 AM

I'm serious about perfumery!

Quote:

CATECHESIS 6

That one must give off a sweet fragrance through acquiring the virtues.

Brethren and fathers, at Christ’s resurrection creation too, putting away its winter gloom, like a deadness puts out fresh shoots and as it were comes to life again. And yes, we see the earth wearing green, the plants flourishing, the animals skipping around [an unattested word], the sea tamed and everything being changed for the better.

But I must explain why I have said this. If inanimate and irrational creatures are made radiant and lovely by the resplendent resurrection, how much more ought we, who have been honoured with reason and the image of God, make ourselves bright by our life and give off sweet fragrance by the spirit. For one who strives after virtue is truly the sweet fragrance of Christ, and the Apostle bears witness to this when he says, For we are the sweet fragrance of Christ for God among those who are being saved and those who are perishing, for the latter a scent of death leading to death, for the former an scent of life leading to life [2 Cor. 2,15-16].

And it is possible to say this as well. Before his transgression, Adam too was a sweet fragrance for God, made bright by immortality and incorruption and engrossed in heavenly contemplation. And therefore, like a fragrant meadow filled with flowers, appropriately he dwelt in Paradise, giving off the virtues. The patriarch Isaac also, when he smelt a sweet aroma on his son Jacob, said, See, the scent of my son is like the scent of a fertile field that the Lord has blessed [Gen. 27,27], that is to say the scent that has been received spiritually.

So then, my brothers, let us give off a sweet spiritual fragrance, a perfume that each one produces [unattested] for themselves by a blending of the virtues, as a truly master perfumer. This perfume is blessed. This perfume is sweet to God. This perfume attracts angels, but repels demons. With this perfume women ran behind Jesus, as it says in the Song of Songs [1,4 LXX]. With this perfume too let us also run as we celebrate with sincerity the holy Mid-Pentecost, which is at the doors, since it is written, When it was already the mid-point of the feast, Jesus went up to the Temple and taught, and the Jews marvelled, saying, ‘How does this man know letters, without having learnt?’ [John 7,14-15] But this was before the Passion, while now, after the Resurrection, he appears to and eats [Cf. Acts 1,3-4] with the holy Apostles, initiating them into greater and more ineffable mysteries, and — O what inexpressible condescension! — after the Resurrection he touched food, though his holy flesh had no need to. But nevertheless, so as to confirm his Resurrection, he ate and drank and let his side be handled. And to those who thought that he was a spirit he said, See my hands and feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, because a spirit does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have [Luke 24,39]. What do you say to that, enemy of Christ? If he has flesh and bones, does he not have the possibility of being portrayed in an image? So if the latter is impossible, so was the former. But he himself silently bears witness also to his being portrayed, for each of them confirms the other.

But the iconoclasts, who think like the Manicheans, will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction [2 Thess. 1,9], as it is written. Let us though, brethren, who believe with orthodox understanding that we both see and worship our Lord Jesus Christ in an image, display a way of life worthy of the faith, pure, blameless, guiltless, so as not to limp on either account, but well-pleasing on both we may attain the kingdom of heaven, in Christ Jesus our Lord, to whom be glory and might with the Father and the holy Spirit, now and for ever, and to the ages of ages. Amen.

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/ephrem/ths06.htm

12-07-2006, 10:20 PM	#1
krosero Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 294	Author of the "Jesus, son of Damneus" argument Can anyone tell me to whom the argument belongs that Josephus originally wrote, "the brother of Jesus, son of Damneus," in Antiquities 20? Where is the idea published (internet or otherwise)? I know the idea is not Doherty's, but that's all I know about it. Kind thanks, Kevin Rosero

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12-07-2006, 10:29 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	I think that Michael Turton, who posts here as Vorkosigan, came up with the idea and discussed it on these boards a while back. I don't know if he was the first to think of it. "called Christ" ONLY was added to Ant. 20.200.

12-07-2006, 11:02 PM	#3
krosero Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 294	Toto, thanks for the link and such a quick reply. I remember digging up that thread last year and finding it fascinating, but I'd long since forgotten it. I'm still be interested in hearing where others first heard this argument. Perhaps Vork can shed some light on where the argument came from? Kevin Rosero

12-08-2006, 12:21 AM	#4
Vorkosigan Contributor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Barrayar Posts: 11,866	I thought of it independently, but the original idea goes back to the '30s, I found out later. Can't remember who first spotted it, but I've seen it referenced. Michael

12-08-2006, 12:47 AM	#5
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Looking at the original thread, might Jesus called Christ mean Jesus the Perfumer?

12-08-2006, 02:57 AM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	There isn't much to come up with, its right there in the text. I would think that everyone who reads it would see this. My view on this, which I discussed with Carrier, was that the text is not an interpolation at all, its just that Jesus son of Damneus was also called Christ, after all this just means anointed one and was used in the Old Testament texts to refer to kings or highly pious people. To me this makes sense because it says that they are giving the high priesthood to Jesus son of Damneus, and you would give it to someone who is highly pious. I mentioned it to Carrier, but he said that he has proof that its an interpolation, and he is going to be publishing a paper to that effect "soon", so we shall see. One mark against my theory is that Josephus doesn't use the word anywhere else, nor does he explain the term, so this would support the interpolation argument I suppose.

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