Solo

The problem is there are no Qurans to compare to. The Uthman's recension took care of that early on. His "version" on the face of it seems pretty hard to argue with though since it comes through the earlier "official" compilation of the text by Abu Bakr on the urgings of Umar, the two first caliphs. The author of the Abu Bakr's Quran was the first "hafiz", or the keeper of the recitation, Zaid bin Thabit. One cannot get closer to the source than that (both caliphs were family, btw, fathers of Mohammed's wives Aisha and Hafsa, respectively, and early converts). For what it is worth here is an analysis of the textual variants by a dissenting voice.

Regards,
Jiri

primitivefuture

Why do you post links from anti-Islamic sites?

That link you posted has already been refuted:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/textual.htm

Peace.

Roger Pearse

Um, that's not the issue that I was addressing -- whether any Koran is really authentic (they probably are) -- but whether anyone has actually sat down and systematically inspected those Korans that exist. I do not believe -- unless anyone *does* know of this -- that any such exercise has been carried out.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Clivedurdle

I've had the following pm

Who is the author who has argued cogently differently?

primitivefuture

Iasion:


This should be interesting

That is false. The last surah revealed to the prophet was BEFORE his death. Surah An-Nasr.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

There is no evidence whatsoever that “many was lost to Yamama.” Please provide me primary sources as evidence.

The complete Quran, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Quran be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.


There is none of such things, and if so you will find that there is several different context copies of the Quran today.

It’s not worth writing a long response to false claims, so I’ll just post links that refute this myth:
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...raat/hafs.html
http://www.mostmerciful.com/reply-ans-islam.htm



Umm…wrong again

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.). Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centres of Muslims. There were other personal collections of the portions of the Qur’an that people had with them. These might have been incomplete and with mistakes. Usman (r.a.) only appealed to the people to destroy all these copies which did not match the original manuscript of the Qur’an in order to preserve the original text of the Qur’an. Two such copies of the copied text of the original Qur’an authenticated by the Prophet are present to this day, one at the museum in Tashkent in erstwhile Soviet Union and the other at the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul, Turkey.


The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.

These common misconception was already addressed. But for more info, please visit:

http://www.message4muslims.org.uk/Qu...crecension.htm
http://www.answering-christianity.co...ther_books.htm



The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq.Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

For more informtion on the Quran's authenticity, please visit:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Quran/...servation.html
http://www.islam4all.com/new_page_32.htm
http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive...ang=E&id=53802
http://www.islam-guide.com/bqs/15authenticity.htm
http://www.missionislam.com/quran/Authenticity.htm
http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/AuthenticQuran.html
http://quranicteachings.co.uk/truth_of_the_quran.htm
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac3.htm#links

Please read before asking questions.

May I ask from what source you obtained your arguments from? Thanks.


Blui:

What do you expect me to refute? This is how the Quran was kept preserved, and what is ment by differ in recitation, meaning differ in pronounciation NOT in context. This doesnt prove the authenticity of the Quran is in question.

This is a much appropriate site:
http://www.quranicrealm.com/

You can get translations from 6 top translators, hear the recitation of each verse, and even get access to the transliteration if you wish to memorize surahs for prayer.

Also, one must also read the commentary of the Quran. It explains the Quran verse by verse with full context:
http://www.altafsir.com/

CliveDurdle:

Obviously before Muhammad's (pbuh) time. The revelations were recored soon after they were memorized.

Roger Pearse:

1.) Muhammad (pbuh) did not write the Quran. He was illiterate.
2.) I'll check that one for you. Probably carbon dating or of the like.

From what? Muslim scriptures? They have been scrutinized extensively and a "critical comparison" has been done before.

Peace

WWJD4aKlondikeBar

So right there you just told us that the Quran is not the word of God. It is someone's written interpretation of Mohammed's assertions. If Mo couldn't read then he wouldn't have been able to tell if the scribe were recording his actual words. If God really existed then why wouldn't he write the book himself instead of telling a prophet to tell someone to ineterpret it?

I know you're all blind to what anyone here is saying and that you think you're winning an argument just because you can muster a reply to everyone's post...but can you at least see that we have legitimate doubts about your assertions? Maybe this is God's way of telling you to go on a holy quest and fact check what you're saying. Not for our benefit but for your own personal spiritual growth. 'Buh' be unto you.

linwood

This statement strikes me as untrue.

It`s my limited knowledge that one of four surviving "copies" is the earliest Quran available.

There is no "original" Quran.

Edit:
The Uthamn Quran you`ve pictured in this thread is not the "original" Quran.
It`s a copy...

primitivefuture

Sigh….why do you come to hasty conclusions?? :banghead: :banghead: The Quran was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) through angel Gabriel over a period of 23 years. It is the word of God, which he memorized. No interpretation, the Quran is [u]literally[/b] the word of God, word to word.

Getting annoyed by realizing you’re wrong??

Muslims believe atheists are blind:

Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path). (2:18)

What’s hilarious is that you’re asking me (a Muslim) to get a fact check about my religion when you don’t know jack about Islam.


Qur'anic Manuscript In The Topkapi Museum, Istanbul, Turkey

Qur'anic Manuscript In Tashkent, Uzbekistan

Qur'anic Manuscript At The Al-Hussein Mosque, Cairo, Egypt

Solo

You did not bother reading articles in the link I sent you, did you ? :huh:

Jiri

Iasion

Greetings primitivefuture,

Quran not written down or finalised during Mohamed's lifetime

I provided evidence from Muslim sources that the Quran was not collected in writing in Mohamed's time :

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr as-Siddiq sent for me when the people of Yamama had been killed. Then Abu Bakr said : "... you should search for the Qur'an and collect it ". By Allah! ... Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?"... (Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 6, p.477).


You ignored it.
Please respond to this Muslim evidence which shows the Quran was not completed by Mohamed.


Some of the Quran was lost to posterity :

I DID !
You IGNORED it!
Here is the Muslim evidence - please respond to it this time :

Passages lost at Yamana :

Many (of the passages) of the Qur'an that were sent down were known by those who died on the day of Yamama ... but they were not known (by those who) survived them, nor were they written down, nor had Abu Bakr, Umar or Uthman (by that time) collected the Qur'an, nor were they found with even one (person) after them. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, p.23).


Quran NOT complete :

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).


Pasages have been lost or removed from the Quran :

We used to recite a surah which resembled in length and severity to (Surah) Bara'at. I have, however, forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: "If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust". ( Sahih Muslim, Vol. 2, p.501).


About a century after Uthmann, al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf made eleven consonantal corrections to the Quran :

Altogether al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf made eleven modifications in the reading of the Uthmanic text. ... In al-Baqarah (Surah 2.259) it originally read Lam yatasanna waandhur, but it was altered to Lam yatasannah ... In al-Ma'ida (Surah 5.48) it read Shari ya'atan wa minhaajaan but it was altered to shir 'atawwa minhaajaan. (Ibn Abi Dawud, Kitab al-Masahif, .117).



This is clear and present evidence that the Quran was not completed until after Mohamed, and that passages have been lost or changed.

But, all you did as answer was snip my evidence and preach your faithful claims - that is not debate. I expect you to actually read and respond to the evidnce,

If you expect to convince anyone here, you will have to actually deal with the evidence presented. No-one is fooled by your faithful preaching - we see it all the time here.


Iasion