Freethought & Rationalism Archive

graymouser · 09-29-2009, 01:29 PM

There was a discussion going on between IBelieveInHymn and I in the "Atheists Don't Understand the Bible..." thread that I think has some value in continuing, but unfortunately it was overwhelmed by recent posts on other matters in that thread. I'd like to go over it here, since I believe the principal objections are unanswered.

For those who haven't gone through the thread, Matt. 24:34 reads:
"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

Jesus is talking about the "coming of the Son of Man in glory," or parousia, in this verse. IBIH has contended that the word γενεα is a translation of the Aramaic word "sharbeta" - the transliteration would be $RBT), for Aramaic scholars - which in this case means "race," not "generation," and that the correct translation of the verse is referring to the Jewish race. Both γενεα and $RBT) have primary translations of "generation."

There is a sense of γενεα that means a group of people, as in a race. However, it doesn't mean what our word "race" means, because "race" is a word that doesn't have a temporal component. The Greek word γενεα - and its Aramaic equivalent $RBT) which IBIH thinks we should consider as original - is glossed in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament as "(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time--Mt xxiv.34... used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period." This is the sense in which the Amplified Bible, which uses expanded meanings for somewhat ambiguous words in the NT, uses to clarify "generation" in Matt. 24:34.

IBIH has tried to make this word just mean "race," but that's a really poor reading of the text. The word primarily means "generation," and even if you could find a definition of "generation" in the OED that means "race," you would have to find an explanation for why the author didn't use a word that means "race." It's possible that Matt 24:34 is referring to the Jewish race - at the time that Jesus was speaking. For instance if you read Matt. 1:17 or Matt. 11:16 it's quite obvious that this means "generation" in its context throughout the Gospel. This is why no one has actually used the gloss "race" that he is so insistent upon. Its sense as "race" is handled in the Amplified Bible: "Truly, I tell you, this generation--that is, the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period--will not pass away till all these things taken together take place." Translating it as "race" without qualifying that it is tightly bound to the current time is downright misleading, incorrect, and not supported by any translator or Bible scholar.

bacht · 09-29-2009, 01:36 PM

There's confirmation of this in the rest of the NT, where Christ's coming is said to be soon ("like a thief in the night"). Stretching the timeline for the Parousia is clearly something that would occur to later post-apostolic generations (the rabbis did this too, pushing eschatology into the nebulous "world to come" after the disastrous revolts against Rome)

graymouser · 09-29-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

There's confirmation of this in the rest of the NT, where Christ's coming is said to be soon ("like a thief in the night"). Stretching the timeline for the Parousia is clearly something that would occur to later post-apostolic generations (the rabbis did this too, pushing eschatology into the nebulous "world to come" after the disastrous revolts against Rome)

Yeah. The main verse IBIH has tried to use against a plain reading of γενεα has been Matt. 24:36, which reads:

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." (NASB)

But reading this as permitting a parousia delayed by two centuries, much less two millennia, strains credibility past the breaking point. If I say that there will be a hurricane that will devastate the city I'm in sometime in the undefined near future but I do not know the day and hour, I'm not predicting a hurricane five hundred years from now, am I? Likewise, Matt. 24:36 does not contradict the verse two before it; together they make a specific part of the prophecy (this generation) and a vague part (day and hour unknown).

John Kesler · 09-29-2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Matthew 10:16-23
16 "See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17Beware of them, for they will hand you over to councils and flog you in their synagogues; 18and you will be dragged before governors and kings because of me, as a testimony to them and the Gentiles. 19When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; 20for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; 22and you will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

2 Peter 3:3-8
3First of all you must understand this, that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts 4and saying, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!" 5They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

Why didn't "Peter" say that since the Jewish race still existed, Jesus couldn't have come yet? Instead, he appealed to Psalm 90:4 in saying that a thousand years is as a day to God.

Toto · 09-29-2009, 02:36 PM

There is an essay by Mark Smith - I am having trouble with that web site, but there seems to be a complete copy of his original essay here, with a number of useful quotes.

Quote:

It is commonly declared that the word "generation," in Matthew 24:34, means to imply that the "race" of the Jews would not pass, till all the mentioned events came to pass. There is no justification for such a position. C.I. Scofield, in his Bible's reference to this verse, recognized this, and actually SWITCHED the definition of the word from that of genea to to that of genos, which is an entirely different word! The following will show that there is a great distinction between the two, and that Matthew 24:34 means the age of people then living, and not the entire Jewish "race." The following quote by Chilton defines the sphere of this debate:

"Some have sought to get around the force of this text by saying that the word generation here really means race, and that Jesus was simply saying that the Jewish race would not die out until all these things took place. Is that true? I challenge you: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word generation (in Greek, genea) and see if it ever means 'race' in any other context. Here are all the references for the Gospels: Matthew 1:17; 11:16; 12:39, 41, 42, 45; 16:4; 17:17; 23:36; 24:34; Mark 8:12, 38; 9:19; 13:30; Luke 1:48, 50; 7:31; 9:41; 11:29, 30, 31, 32, 50, 51; 18:8; 17:25; 21:32. Not one of these references is speaking of the entire Jewish race over thousands of years; all use the word in its normal sense of the sum total of those living at the same time. It always refers to contemporaries. In fact, those who say it means "race" tend to acknowledge this fact, but explain that the word suddenly changes its meaning when Jesus uses it in Matthew 24!"

(Was Jesus like Humpty Dumpty, who paid the words extra to mean what he wanted them to?)

spin · 09-29-2009, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Kesler

Why didn't "Peter" say that since the Jewish race still existed, Jesus couldn't have come yet? Instead, he appealed to Psalm 90:4 in saying that a thousand years is as a day to God.

You can't expect consistency across a tradition, especially as we are dealing with different times, locations and writers. There is no necessity of homogeneity. Diversity is what is to be expected.

spin

Sheshbazzar · 09-29-2009, 07:54 PM

IBIH admits that he became a 'Christian' a whole 5 years ago!
And -already- he is such an 'expert' on the fine details of Biblical hermeneutics that his 'translations' set aside and replace the work of thousands of Biblical scholars over hundreds of years!
Why give credence to the claims of a < :censored: > who quite obviously cannot discern his own aural canal from his rectum?

09-29-2009, 01:29 PM	#1
graymouser Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Collingswood, NJ Posts: 1,259	genea in Matt. 23:43 There was a discussion going on between IBelieveInHymn and I in the "Atheists Don't Understand the Bible..." thread that I think has some value in continuing, but unfortunately it was overwhelmed by recent posts on other matters in that thread. I'd like to go over it here, since I believe the principal objections are unanswered. For those who haven't gone through the thread, Matt. 24:34 reads: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Jesus is talking about the "coming of the Son of Man in glory," or parousia, in this verse. IBIH has contended that the word γενεα is a translation of the Aramaic word "sharbeta" - the transliteration would be $RBT), for Aramaic scholars - which in this case means "race," not "generation," and that the correct translation of the verse is referring to the Jewish race. Both γενεα and $RBT) have primary translations of "generation." There is a sense of γενεα that means a group of people, as in a race. However, it doesn't mean what our word "race" means, because "race" is a word that doesn't have a temporal component. The Greek word γενεα - and its Aramaic equivalent $RBT) which IBIH thinks we should consider as original - is glossed in Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament as "(4) The whole multitude of men living at the same time--Mt xxiv.34... used esp. of the Jewish race living at one and the same period." This is the sense in which the Amplified Bible, which uses expanded meanings for somewhat ambiguous words in the NT, uses to clarify "generation" in Matt. 24:34. IBIH has tried to make this word just mean "race," but that's a really poor reading of the text. The word primarily means "generation," and even if you could find a definition of "generation" in the OED that means "race," you would have to find an explanation for why the author didn't use a word that means "race." It's possible that Matt 24:34 is referring to the Jewish race - at the time that Jesus was speaking. For instance if you read Matt. 1:17 or Matt. 11:16 it's quite obvious that this means "generation" in its context throughout the Gospel. This is why no one has actually used the gloss "race" that he is so insistent upon. Its sense as "race" is handled in the Amplified Bible: "Truly, I tell you, this generation--that is, the whole multitude of people living at the same time, in a definite, given period--will not pass away till all these things taken together take place." Translating it as "race" without qualifying that it is tightly bound to the current time is downright misleading, incorrect, and not supported by any translator or Bible scholar.

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09-29-2009, 01:36 PM	#2
bacht Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Canada Posts: 2,305	There's confirmation of this in the rest of the NT, where Christ's coming is said to be soon ("like a thief in the night"). Stretching the timeline for the Parousia is clearly something that would occur to later post-apostolic generations (the rabbis did this too, pushing eschatology into the nebulous "world to come" after the disastrous revolts against Rome)

09-29-2009, 07:54 PM	#7
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	IBIH admits that he became a 'Christian' a whole 5 years ago! And -already- he is such an 'expert' on the fine details of Biblical hermeneutics that his 'translations' set aside and replace the work of thousands of Biblical scholars over hundreds of years! Why give credence to the claims of a < :censored: > who quite obviously cannot discern his own aural canal from his rectum?

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