Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Switch89 · 01-25-2012, 08:16 PM

John Loftus recently posted about an article in the Journal for Biblical Literature that discusses the parallels between Greco-Roman gods and Jesus. Loftus posted a handy table from that article that shows the parallels and the ancient sources that those parallels come from. The article that this comes from is called "Mark's Empty Tomb and Other Translation fables in Antiquity" By Richard C. Miller. You can read the article yourself, as the entire issue of that journal is online here. I was happy to see that Miller wrote about many parallels that I discussed in a 2009 article I wrote called "The Forgotten Sons of God." As a side note: Plutarch wrote Numa Pompilius around 110 AD, not in 75 AD as it says in the article. I've also blogged a bit further about a parallel between a certain gospel/Buddhist story here.

(This, by the way, is a short note I put on my blog Answers in Genesis BUSTED!).

Toto · 01-26-2012, 09:13 AM

This isn't on pagan parallels to Jesus - it is on Hellenistic literary parallels to the empty tomb story.

Quote:

Mark’s Empty Tomb and Other Translation Fables in Classical Antiquity
Richard C. Miller, Claremont Graduate University—School of Religion, Claremont, CA 91711

Struggling under the weight of contemporary, socioreligious demands, prevailing scholarship regarding Mark’s enigmatic ending may prove nothing short of delusional. Several factors, in my view, conspire, prohibiting a clear understanding of how such a text would have likely performed in the ancient Mediterranean world. First, scholars tend to subsume Mark under a Judaic literary domain, thus seeking its primary semiotic indices and cultural conventions within early Jewish literature. There appears, however, to be little basis for this appetence, except a rather non-scholarly insistence on a “pristine,” “non-pagan” well from which the academy ought to draw nearly all cultural, literary, and ideological antecedents. Such aversion combines with what one may best describe as a fundamental misapprehension of the processes and principles governing Hellenistic literary production; that is, a given story, when juxtaposed with the array of analogous Mediterranean fabulae, must either match uniformly or the classification be summarily dismissed as nonapplicable. This not only comes as a false choice but betrays a gross misconception regarding the phenomena of syncretic adaptation in the Hellenistic Orient. Third, and perhaps most obstructive, the persistent sacred nature of the narrative, for many in a field overgrown with faith-based scholarship, has typically confused subject and object, yielding a paucity of effective historical, literary-critical treatments.

...

The pagan parallels to Jesus are referenced in a comment: this blog post looks good, but is not in a peer reviewed journal.

Blog post on Pagan parallels to Jesus

Quote:

I’m tired of misinformation in two extremes: On one hand, we have nontheists who claim that Jesus is a carbon copy of Osirus or Dionysus, but often not giving the reader the primary sources to back this claim up. On the other hand, we have Christian apologists claiming either that no pagan parallels to Jesus exist, or that all the parallels are vague, general, and weak. My intention is to end this campaign of misinformation by describing the pagan parallels to Jesus as well as the differences.

I have divided this essay into two sections: The first discusses gods for which I have found a great number of parallels (Romulus and Heracles), the second discusses gods for which I have found only one or a few parallels. This is not the final word on the subject, as I am sure there are a great many parallels I have yet to discover. Let me also note that I have gone out of my way to make sure my sources are, as much as possible, pre-Christian. Most of the texts I cite were written when Christianity was a rare and little known sect (and therefore unlikely to influence other cults.

andrewcriddle · 01-26-2012, 12:46 PM

There seem to be problems with the Buddhist parallel to Jesus walking on the water see Jesus walking on the sea by Madden. (I'm having problems with deep links to google books but I hope this works.)

Also the account by Pausanias

Quote:

three pots are brought into the building by the priests [of Dionysus] and set down empty in the presence of the citizens and of any strangers who may chance to be in the country. The doors of the building are sealed by the priests themselves and by any others who may be so inclined. On the morrow they are allowed to examine the seals, and on going into the building they find the pots filled with wine

is strictly speaking an account of miraculous production of wine but not an account of conversion of water into wine.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 01-26-2012, 12:50 PM

I've never been convinced of the pagan parallels to the core gospel narrative. A lot of the similarities can be explained by a common literary convention. I am reminded of my youth and the literary convention used by the way readers to Penthouse developed their letters to the Forum section of the magazine - “I am a long time reader of Forum and thought the stories published here are fakes. But something happened to me last weekend which I have to you about. I was at my co-ed girlfriend's family cottage with her best friend Mimi. It was a hot summer day and we all decided to skinny dip in the local lake to cool off ...”

The similarities in the thousands of letters published in this magazine is clearly a sign of an unconscious literary convention among the readers. I know that because something happened to me last night I thought I should share with everyone at this forum. I was ice fishing in the Arctic with two very hot Inuit guides who flew me into the North Pole for a much needed getaway ...

tanya · 01-27-2012, 03:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

Definitive, Scholarly Paper on Pagan Parallels to Jesus

The word "pagan", often used in a derogatory sense, implies people or nations lacking culture, knowledge, or education (as defined by christians), i.e. "country bumpkins"--not to be confounded with Australians.

There are some peoples of the world, who are steeped in strong cultural traditions, admittedly far removed from the 5th century BCE influence of Persia. Here I refer to 2500 year old religious traditions of MesoAmerica, on the one hand, and ancient China on the other.

Both groups are regarded by Euro-centric christians as pagan.

Neither group, however, has any sort of parallel to the jesus story. I argue then, that both the jesus story, and the "Pagan Parallels", emerged as fables influenced, as was judaism itself, by ancient Persian traditions--in turn, affected by even more ancient, Egyptian traditions. There is no need, in short, to invoke a pejorative term, like "pagan", into a discussion of the origin of the jesus fairy tale.

Vorkosigan · 01-27-2012, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

I've never been convinced of the pagan parallels to the core gospel narrative. A lot of the similarities can be explained by a common literary convention. I am reminded of my youth and the literary convention used by the way readers to Penthouse developed their letters to the Forum section of the magazine - “I am a long time reader of Forum and thought the stories published here are fakes. But something happened to me last weekend which I have to you about. I was at my co-ed girlfriend's family cottage with her best friend Mimi. It was a hot summer day and we all decided to skinny dip in the local lake to cool off ...”

The similarities in the thousands of letters published in this magazine is clearly a sign of an unconscious literary convention among the readers. I know that because something happened to me last night I thought I should share with everyone at this forum. I was ice fishing in the Arctic with two very hot Inuit guides who flew me into the North Pole for a much needed getaway ...

I knew I was in the right forum when I found porn and NT history in the same post.

Vorkosigan

mountainman · 01-27-2012, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

The word "pagan", often used in a derogatory sense, implies people or nations lacking culture, knowledge, or education (as defined by christians), i.e. "country bumpkins"--not to be confounded with Australians.

Kanga - rooral ?

Quote:

There is no need, in short, to invoke a pejorative term, like "pagan", into a discussion of the origin of the jesus fairy tale.

Not so fast, because the received tradition of the origin of the jesus fairy tale might be, in short, a very late phenomenom.

From "Pagans and Christians" by Robin Lane-Fox ....

Quote:

Originally Posted by R LANE-FOX

p.31:

the word "pagani: in everyday use meant "civilian" and/or "rustic".

"pagani: first appears in christian inscriptions from early 4th century.

"pagani: earliest use in the Law Codes in Codex Theodosius 16.2.18 (c.370)

"pagani: is a word coined by christians -- of the towns and cities.

The ancient historical evidence indicates that the historical appearance of the pejorative term, "pagan", is a Christian phenomenom of the 4th century. As soon as the 4th century "christians" miraculously got the upper hand over the Egypto-Graeco-Roman populace, they slagged them as "pagans".

Iskander · 01-27-2012, 04:05 PM

The gospel of Mark, it is said by some that echoes the Odyssey--parallels between Jesus and Odysseus and between his disciples and the crew and also between the Jewish authorities and Penelope’s’ suitors...

Words are so generous to those who seek the hidden truth!

GakuseiDon · 01-27-2012, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tanya

Quote:

Originally Posted by Switch89

Definitive, Scholarly Paper on Pagan Parallels to Jesus

The word "pagan", often used in a derogatory sense, implies people or nations lacking culture, knowledge, or education (as defined by christians), i.e. "country bumpkins"--not to be confounded with Australians.

In Australia we call them "bogans", which now that I think of it, sort of rhymes with "pagan". Here are some bogans being introduced to a "classy" drink, flavored with a hint of honey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0n0ijg96ss

But I don't think the word "pagan" has that nuance now. At least, when we talk of "pagan philosophy", it is usually in positive terms, representing the wisdom of the Greek philosophers and their Roman-era descendants. No-one uses it to mean "country bumpkin" -- or even "Australian" -- philosophy.

01-25-2012, 08:16 PM	#1
Switch89 Regular Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Montgomery, AL Posts: 453	Definitive, Scholarly Paper on Pagan Parallels to Jesus John Loftus recently posted about an article in the Journal for Biblical Literature that discusses the parallels between Greco-Roman gods and Jesus. Loftus posted a handy table from that article that shows the parallels and the ancient sources that those parallels come from. The article that this comes from is called "Mark's Empty Tomb and Other Translation fables in Antiquity" By Richard C. Miller. You can read the article yourself, as the entire issue of that journal is online here. I was happy to see that Miller wrote about many parallels that I discussed in a 2009 article I wrote called "The Forgotten Sons of God." As a side note: Plutarch wrote Numa Pompilius around 110 AD, not in 75 AD as it says in the article. I've also blogged a bit further about a parallel between a certain gospel/Buddhist story here. (This, by the way, is a short note I put on my blog Answers in Genesis BUSTED!).

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01-26-2012, 12:50 PM	#4
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	I've never been convinced of the pagan parallels to the core gospel narrative. A lot of the similarities can be explained by a common literary convention. I am reminded of my youth and the literary convention used by the way readers to Penthouse developed their letters to the Forum section of the magazine - “I am a long time reader of Forum and thought the stories published here are fakes. But something happened to me last weekend which I have to you about. I was at my co-ed girlfriend's family cottage with her best friend Mimi. It was a hot summer day and we all decided to skinny dip in the local lake to cool off ...” The similarities in the thousands of letters published in this magazine is clearly a sign of an unconscious literary convention among the readers. I know that because something happened to me last night I thought I should share with everyone at this forum. I was ice fishing in the Arctic with two very hot Inuit guides who flew me into the North Pole for a much needed getaway ...

01-27-2012, 04:05 PM	#8
Iskander Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 3,619	The gospel of Mark, it is said by some that echoes the Odyssey--parallels between Jesus and Odysseus and between his disciples and the crew and also between the Jewish authorities and Penelope’s’ suitors... Words are so generous to those who seek the hidden truth!

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