Steven Carr

Would people who died a shameful death ever be referred to as 'a wise man' by Jews?

ApostateAbe

Are you alluding to the Testimonium Flavianum?

aa5874

Well would this mean that if Jesus existed he was a "wise sage" and NOT an "apocalyptic preacher"?

And then , it was not even certain if Jesus was a man and did ever die. See the "TF".

Now, what exactly did Jesus do to be called "wise".

It must be noted that Josephus appears to have regarded Jesus son of Ananus as a true prophet or "wise" since he can remember that it was the prediction of Jesus son of Ananus that came true.

Woe did come to Jerusalem. Jesus the son of Ananus was "wise".

Josephus did not write about a single prediction of Jesus of Nazareth or mention the name Jesus of Nazareth.

Doug Shaver

By Jews in general? Probably not.

By some particular Jew or group of Jews? Depends on whom you have in mind.

DCHindley

Why would it necessarily be shameful?

Did the thousands of Jews who rose in revolt against Roman rule at various times feel shame if they were captured and executed? Or would they express words like "I regret that I have but one life to give for my country"? Did partisans in WW2 feel shame when they were stripped naked and hung from public gallows?

Oh, the Romans (and Nazis) certainly tried to humiliate and dehumanize them to send a message to others who might be tempted to follow their paths. I'd say that if it such an execution were for brigandage (not the political revolutionary kind) it might have a deterrant effect. But subjection through intimidation is an age-old tradition among dominating powers, and it can have its upside.

Look how Herod the Great domesticated the lawless regions of Trachonitis & Batanea - he hired a band of mounted Jewish archers freshly discharged from Parthian military service and moving through the region, whether to join Herod's army or to become brigands themselves it isn't said, to police the region. Mounted archers charging at you while standing on the backs of their horses and shooting a quiver of arrows faster than you would imagine would intimidate the roudier types, I imagine. The region settled down and eventually prospered as a secure trade route for exotic goods from the east, prized not only in Judea but in Rome as well. The residents lived tax free, with Herod collected tolls from the caravans to finance the whole thing.

Anyhow, getting back to the revolutionaries, wasn't Judah the Galilean, who revolted in the transition from Archelaeus' to Roman rule in 4 CE, called a "sophist" or "teacher" (War 2:118, depending on translation, the Greek noun is sofisths, a master of one's craft or art, a wise man). In Ant. 18 Jesus was called "wise man" (Greek sofos anhr, the adjective sofos means skilled in any handicraft or art, cunning in his craft, clever in matters of common life, wise, prudent, shrewd). So, if Judas the Galilean is any indication, a rebel can be wise and someone who, if caught, would be executed.

DCH

arnoldo

People who died by hanging on a tree were referred to as cursed rather than wise.